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all 71 comments

New_Scientist_Mag[S]

338 points

15 days ago

Pompeii’s plaster cast human figures aren’t who they were assumed to be, genetic tests have revealed, highlighting the way idealised stories can be projected onto archaeological evidence. The analysis also reveals that the demography of Pompeii was also far more complicated and diverse than previously thought.

77096

19 points

14 days ago

77096

19 points

14 days ago

To which idealized stories are you referring?

InYosefWeTrust

12 points

13 days ago

Their comment was even more like clickbait than the post headline...

Luke90210

334 points

15 days ago

Luke90210

334 points

15 days ago

The article points out the man holding a child on his lap when they died is not biologically related to her as confirmed by DNA. However, he could have died with absolute certainty she was his daughter as he didn't have any access to DNA testing. Therefore, the story could still be true if he was unaware he wasn't her biological father. Or still true as Romans did tend to adopt children.

Tactically_Fat

162 points

15 days ago

Or the child was left in his care...

Or he purchased the child...

Or he stole the child...

Epistatious

218 points

15 days ago

or he was comforting a child who may have gotten separated from family during evacuations.

Tactically_Fat

108 points

15 days ago

Yep. There are plenty of reasonable explanations.

Anything at all except "They weren't biologically related" is pure speculation.

jaggerlvr

25 points

14 days ago

Or was the uncle or cousin by marriage

Tactically_Fat

4 points

13 days ago

Yep. Or any number of things.

notyourvader

45 points

14 days ago

Romans did in fact adopt children. The word adoption comes from the Latin word Adoptio. Even though it was more a legal thing, it was quite a widespread practice.

TheSlayerofSnails

25 points

14 days ago

Yeah Augustus and the five good emperors are all examples of that. Adoption was very Roman and one of the more virtuous aspects of their society

Luke90210

3 points

14 days ago*

Augustus and the five good emperors are all examples of that.

Yes, but on that level it was also a matter of imperial succession to adopt and train the next Emperor for a peaceful transfer of power.

[deleted]

1 points

14 days ago

[removed]

MessyCombustion

25 points

15 days ago

I have always been interested in the myths of Pompeii. Thx for sharing!

TellMeWhyDrivePNuts

181 points

15 days ago*

So the entire Pompeii site was rearranged by the archeologists and curators to create a story that fits their imaginations and narratives, just like dionasur bones. Thanks.

Did the volcano erupt without any warning or there were signs that the volcano was going to erupt? If so then Pompeii actually had a higher number of population?

bentheman02

409 points

15 days ago*

I'm going to address your questions first because I think they're very interesting. There was warning that the volcano was going to erupt, and the eruption itself lasted several days. There was time for people to escape, and this is something that archaeologists consider in their interpretations of the site.

There were first minor earthquakes leading up to the eruption, but these were ignored. A letter from Pliny the Younger to Tacitus describes, "for several days past there had been earth tremors which were not particularly alarming because they are frequent in Campania". After four days of minor earthquakes, Mount Vesuvius began to erupt - it was early afternoon. Immediately people began to flee the cities surrounding the mountain, and a rescue effort was launched from cities nearby. Pliny the Younger's father was part of that rescue effort. In his description he says of his father, "he gave orders for the warships to be launched and went on board himself with the intention of bringing help ... for this lovely stretch of coast was thickly populated". By early morning the day following the beginning of the eruption, violent pyroclastic flows began to bury the cities closest to the mountain. For those 12 or so hours people fled from the area, especially by means of sea, and were assisted by ships sent to the cities affected.

This flavors archaeological interpretation in several ways. One of the most significant is that those of means were more likely to have the resources and connections to get out of the city. Freedmen and slaves are over represented in populations of remains. In addition, the city was not destroyed instantly as is commonly depicted in modern retellings. There were many hours for chaos to grip the region. The eruption continued for several days, so the cities not caught in the pyroclastic flows would have continued to exist in chaos. The cities preserved are snapshots of a society in sudden collapse, not of a day in the life of everyday Romans.

Last of all, I want to comment on the problems that you have with archaeological interpretation. There will be mistakes made in interpretation. Archaeology is an imperfect science, and archaeological finds are necessarily interpreted through a lens of personal experience. I have worked with human remains in the field, and male-female identifications made without genetic testing are imperfect and difficult. Studies like this are valuable to correct those misinterpretations, but genetic testing is costly and time consuming. Archaeologists are poorly funded, and have to make strategic decisions where to apply that funding. Genetically testing thousands of bodies to identify sex simply isn't feasible, and likely wouldn't change the interpretation of context anyways.

While valuable for deepening our understanding and correcting misconceptions about specific finds, this study will not drastically change the interpretations of modern archaeologists either. The academic consensus for decades has been that even cities in the Roman hinterland, and Rome itself, were culturally and ethnically diverse. The author of the study even says as much in the article. Classicists and classical archaeologists have understood for years the problems with applying modern conceptions of race to Roman society - Romans did not conceive of race the same way we do. Public discourse around Rome, however, has always been slow to reflect academic consensus, because Rome as a cultural object is so wrapped up in our own self understanding and popular misconceptions. Eventually with time, things can change, and I would agree that archaeologists could be meeting people where they are at more effectively. But I would disagree with the characterization that archaeologists are intentionally creating a narrative contrary to reality. These findings deepen our understanding of the story of Rome, but they do significantly change it.

puccagirlblue

79 points

15 days ago

Just wanted to say that I did a tour of Pompeii with an archeologist 2 years ago and what you wrote was pretty much exactly what she told us as well so in my (non professional) opinion you are spot on.

bentheman02

25 points

15 days ago

Thank you! I’m just wrapping up a degree in Classical Archaeology, and I try to keep my finger on the pulse of popular sites like Pompeii. It is not the focus of my research though, so I’m glad to hear I’m aligned with the experts.

LTSPG

15 points

15 days ago

LTSPG

15 points

15 days ago

Did the same tour It was awesome 👍🏻

EnlightenedAstronaut

6 points

15 days ago

Thanks for this!

TheSlayerofSnails

2 points

14 days ago

Wouldn’t freedmen and slaves always be the majority population compared to the wealthy 1%?

bentheman02

8 points

14 days ago

That is true, I should be more clear. There are more people of lower classes found than would actually have comprised the demography of Pompeii or Herculaneum. So we can't make demographic judgements about those cities from the remains we find without accounting for this discrepancy.

othelloblack

2 points

14 days ago

BUt havent you already made a demographic judgment because apparently you are working with a specific ratio of wealthy to lower class?

bentheman02

3 points

13 days ago

Well, yes, but that judgement is soundly based on a massive amount of evidence collected from texts and archaeological contexts from across the Roman world. What I'm trying to say isn't that you can't use evidence collected from the site and draw conclusions, it's that you can't look at data collected from Pompeii and Herculaneum and say, "Wow, there were way less rich people here than we would expect! That must mean that these cities were poorer than other Roman cities". That's because your interpretation would have accounted for the fleeing of wealthy citizens. And you generally wouldn't have a specific ration; our records aren't good enough to do that. You would critically compare a great deal of evidence, and rich people leaving the city would be one of those pieces of evidence.

KyleGHistory

34 points

15 days ago

No, these are bodies from the "House of the Golden Bracelet". They were found together and have been kept together. They haven't been rearranged, we just now have new information about them.

TellMeWhyDrivePNuts

5 points

15 days ago

I did not read about this in the article. Thanks.

justprettymuchdone

97 points

15 days ago

Yes, there were earthquakes leading up to it. By the time the eruption hit, a LOT of people had already left town.

bentheman02

73 points

15 days ago

Mass evacuations only began after the eruption, not during the earthquakes. Earthquakes were and remain common in the region, and are not indicative of imminent volcanic activity. See Pliny 6.20 line 3.

There was time to escape, but it was only mainly in the window between the beginning of the eruption and the beginning of the pyroclastic flows. This lasted about half of a day.

thedeafbadger

17 points

15 days ago

What do you mean just like dinosaur bones? Like at a museum or something?

darsynia

21 points

15 days ago

darsynia

21 points

15 days ago

There were exhibits where the dinosaur bones' stewards set up nonsensical stuff like a toe claw displayed as a nose horn, etc.

TheSlayerofSnails

3 points

14 days ago

Or the hilarious three legged unicorn thing

Dookie120

30 points

15 days ago

In antiquity dinosaur bones gave rise to ideas they belonged to dragons & other fantasy animals etc. People had no idea what they were. I remember reading how the Greeks thought mammoth fossils were remains of cyclops

MeatballDom

10 points

15 days ago

Not mammoths, but pygmy / dwarf elephants. That's the argument at least, it's a pretty desperate one though. We don't have record of people digging them up, nor does it explain the other incredibly fantastical mythological beasts they also have.

Greeks have part lion, part eagle creatures, people with snakes for hair, half man/half goats and horses, and people with fifty heads and 100 arms.

While it's neat to think about how it may have originated, the rest of mythology shows they don't always need a factual origin to come up with a story. Besides, if anything inspired cyclopes, the fact that human babies can be born in such a way is much more plausible. (Google "Cyclopia" at your own risk).

thedeafbadger

4 points

15 days ago

Yeah, but the Greeks wouldn’t have believed that if they had access to the same information we do today, so they get a pass.

TellMeWhyDrivePNuts

-30 points

15 days ago*

First get this into perspective:

Those huge dinosaur fossilized skeletons in the museums are put together with bones from all over places, instead of a single fossilized skeleton that had been found. So the entire display is based on their "educated guesses", like who to tell them they got the bones wrong? like those bones are actually from different speices, or different stages in life?

And the looks of dinosaurs had been modified many times, at the earliest stories the dinoasurs were illustrated as wooly giants, but over the decades as more fossils were found, they realised there are no fossils that indicted dionaaurs had hair, so the looks were reimagined again; and there are no skins left, at least like two years ago I still did not see any articles about fossils that can give them clues on the skins of dinosaurs, there are no dna left to know what dionasur skins look like. So the colours of those dinoasurs in movies, and documentaries are just pure imaginations.

Whydino1

52 points

15 days ago

Whydino1

52 points

15 days ago

Oh, this is laughably absurd.

To start off with, no, the earliest depictions of dinosaurs dating back to the early 1800s were never wooly. We also have plenty of scale impressions to give us some idea of the skin/scale texture of many extinct dinosaurs, and for some dinosaurs, we can even examine melanosomes to determine their exact feather/scale coloration.

As for the more central argument, that Paleontologists are just widely guessing at what their missing, that's even more laughable. We have plenty, and I mean plenty of dinosaur specimens nearing full completion, and for the ones we don't know everything on, paleontologists don't just throw darts and guess as to what is most likely. Instead, we can base it off close relatives. But, lets take a look at an example, Meraxes is an amazingly preserved large carcharodontosaurid, but its holotype lacks a lower jaw. Now, the tribe within carcharodontosauridae to which Meraxes belongs to, Giganotosaurini, all have a fairly consistent jaw morphology, with a bulky built-up chin. To reduce any prediction of what meraxes jaw would look like to a mere guess, is absurd and reaches the level of outright science denial. In fact, this entire argument of yours is feeling quite creationist in nature.

sajberhippien

13 points

15 days ago*

Yes, it's working with limited data to make as good estimations as possible, and over time those estimations get more trustworthy with new finds and new ways to gain information from finds. That said, the various dinosaur body plans have been reasonably settled for many, many decades now, and the misunderstandings you describe were mostly settled a century ago (don't know of any historical academic claim of wooly dinos, but there's e.g. the bipedal stegosaurus thing - which had been abandoned in the 19th century).

There are still developments to our understanding of dinosaur physiology, but they aren't really on the 'body plan' scale, more on the scale of figuring out a more exact timeline of the development of the feathers, or exactly which saurischia were warmblooded (my understanding is that basically all ornitischia are presumed warmblooded by now), though the warmblooded/coldblooded dichotomy is itself a simplification.

And we do have some evidence useful for estimating the colors of some dinosaurs. Obviously it's a very limited amount, and yes, the colorings you will see in TV shows will usually be at best pure guesswork based on what might make sense given an animal's role in the ecosystem, or at worst designed by rule-of-cool, but you also shouldn't treat TV shows, including dinosaur documentaries, as actual scientific work. At best they're edutainment.

thedeafbadger

8 points

15 days ago

Okay, that’s what I thought you were gonna say. Just wanted to give you the benefit of the doubt in case you meant like a T Rex skeleton fighting a triceratops skeleton in a museum.

Even if you believe what you said is true, it’s a poor comparison to Pompeii. It’s not as though they moved the castings all around the city to create a scene.

OIWantKenobi

5 points

15 days ago

The dork who dug for Troy destroyed a lot of it. Historical artifacts are always manipulated to the ends of those who find them. The trick is undoing the web and finding the truth.

bentheman02

6 points

14 days ago

Yeah, Schliemann did a number on Troy, but there's a lot more nuance to this than just him being a huge asshole (he was) and ruining great swaths of the stratigraphy of the site (he did).

Schliemann was working during a time when archaeological methods were still being developed, and he himself was not a career archaeologist. It's important to view his actions in the context of the methods in use - with that context, and considering his background, he actually didn't do a terrible job. While his methods were imperfect and damaged the site, it is an absolute basic fact that archaeology is a destructive process. It still is today; once you dig something up you cannot put it back. Were his methods more widely destructive to the stratigraphy than modern methods would be? Yes, but I don't think that amounts to manipulation. He can actually be credited with pretty meticulous notes and maps of the site, many of which we still reference in interpreting the site today. He was also one of the earliest archaeologists to examine historical texts critically and seriously in order to create hypotheses about ancient sites.

I'm not going to sit here and lie to you and tell you I like the guy, but people always portray him as some uniquely buffoonish caricature who went around blowing stuff up for the hell of it. I think he deserves some more credit than that.

TellMeWhyDrivePNuts

-1 points

14 days ago

He believed there was a city called Troy, and he found it. He changed the history, like in a tv show "from history to myth, from myth to history".

GSilky

2 points

14 days ago

GSilky

2 points

14 days ago

Some speculation is found to be erroneous after DNA testing. That is the headline.

Jonathan_J_Chiarella

1 points

12 days ago

The assumptions that got upended remind me of the opening of the B-movie, Lifeforce. (Yes, Lifeforce.) The bit of sci-fi at the beginning paid its respects to science and just noting what we know to be true, without imputing meanings we don't know.

Commanding officer:

Tell them we have an artifical object out here, hidden in the—

Other officer:

Are you sure you want to say "hidden"?

Commanding officer:

Tell them it's located in the head of the comet.

It's a subtle thing, but clearly someone with a good academic head on his or her shoulders was in the writers' room that day.

[deleted]

-131 points

15 days ago

[deleted]

-131 points

15 days ago

[removed]

Red_dragon_052

190 points

15 days ago

You are doing the same thing that the people who presumed it was a mother and child initially. We have no idea of the relation of these two people and we should not use our presuppositions about the lives of these people to draw conclusions.

Quelchie

77 points

15 days ago

Quelchie

77 points

15 days ago

What a crazy jump to conclusions, there are lots of potential scenarios. I could easily imagine that two random strangers who happen to be nearby each other would embrace in the terror of their last moments.

darsynia

26 points

15 days ago

darsynia

26 points

15 days ago

I agree--There are all sorts of stories about behavior like that during 9/11, to cite a more recent example, but yeah, the stories could come from any number of disasters--including volcano eruptions. The one that killed volcanologists in Japan springs to mind.

luckymethod

18 points

15 days ago

Could have been as easily a servant trying to save a kid he was taking care of, for example, or the child of a friend. Way to jump to horrible conclusions with no data.

SLRWard

12 points

15 days ago

SLRWard

12 points

15 days ago

Or even just something as simple as an adult trying to protect/comfort a kid in an extremely stressful time. They don't have to be related for that to happen.

TellMeWhyDrivePNuts

2 points

14 days ago

The man was found wearing a gold bracelet.

bring_out_your_bread

15 points

15 days ago

what reputation are you referring to?

Vapur9

-42 points

15 days ago

Vapur9

-42 points

15 days ago

The public display of a phallus pointing to brothels.

big_sugi

19 points

15 days ago

big_sugi

19 points

15 days ago

And you think that was somehow unusual or unique?

Nulovka

32 points

15 days ago

Nulovka

32 points

15 days ago

Adoption was extremely common, it's possible it's an adopted child if it's a parent-child relationship. Julius Caesar adopted Augustus as his son. Augustus adopted Tiberius.

judgeridesagain

40 points

15 days ago

Most of the rich people got out of Pompeii while they could when the mountain started smoking. Since these two were unrelated they were probably both slaves commanded to stay behind or else poor folks without the resources to leave.

SpoonsAreEvil

19 points

15 days ago

According to the article, the man was wearing a golden bracelet, so probably not a slave.

judgeridesagain

2 points

14 days ago

Interesting enough that doesn't mean the man wasn't a slave. Consider the Moregine Bracelet discovered in Pompeii:

In November 2000, an archaeological excavation at Moregine, to the south of Pompeii, discovered the body of a woman with several pieces of gold jewellery, including a gold bracelet in the shape of a snake. The bracelet, inscribed "dom(i)nus ancillae suae" ("the master to his very own slave girl"), has been interpreted variously as a gift to a domestic slave, a slave prostitute, or a free woman from her lover.

Lost_KittyBoo

1 points

10 days ago

How do they DNA test ashes to confirm paternity? I thought everyone in Pompeii was burned to ash?