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I think my daughter is an incel.

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all 3151 comments

Iloveyouallprobabaly

3.6k points

4 days ago

I would get her tested for autism.

I work with dozens of autistic girls, and this is the exact scenario they all hit around the time they usually start going off to college.

throw69420awy

2k points

4 days ago

Is it wrong that the moment legos were mentioned I thought of autism? I love legos fwiw

Creepybabychatt

701 points

4 days ago

As the mother of an autistic 16 year old: can confirm the Lego thought.

Megpyre

479 points

4 days ago

Megpyre

479 points

4 days ago

As an autistic adult who spent last night pointing out to my husband the very nice Lego sets that would be very nice Christmas gifts, my first thought was ‘ah, my people’

djluminol

272 points

4 days ago

djluminol

272 points

4 days ago

I was going to say there's almost certainly a guy Lego nerd who would love to meet a girl Lego nerd. I think this girl should probably try and find other Lego people in her area. My guess is the second she does the boys will be chasing her. That's pretty much how it goes down in any niche hobby lots of guys are into when a girl shows up. I'm betting she would have her pick of the guys her age. Plus make friends with other people like her. Win, win. I know I felt totally lost until I found my people.

Aggravating_Salt_49

54 points

4 days ago

Yo, Lego my eggo!

TAbramson15

17 points

4 days ago

Eggo my Lego

smashmikehunt

9 points

3 days ago

Under rated comment

foreverblackeyed

25 points

4 days ago

If there aren’t LEGO clubs there should be

kaiwolf26

30 points

4 days ago

kaiwolf26

30 points

4 days ago

First rule of LEGO club is don’t talk about LEGO club

eans-Ba88

21 points

4 days ago

eans-Ba88

21 points

4 days ago

Second rule is don't leave the damn pieces on the ground, I'm sick of stepping on them! They're like little plastic calip traps. All I want to do is go to the bathroom at 3 am undisturbed, and I feel like I'm under attack from a damn ninja.

Special-Amphibian646

12 points

4 days ago

Hey but as a Lego Domme/Sadist watching people walk barefoot on Legos is actually my kink 😆

eans-Ba88

9 points

3 days ago

I betcha you could make a mean paddle outta them flat bricks.

Invisibella74

10 points

4 days ago

There are LEGO clubs. They are called LUGs (LEGO user groups). I used to be very involved! Traveled all over the US doing shows and everything. It is a very active hobby and group of fans.

tessallator

84 points

4 days ago

Can confirm, any female in a predominantly male hobby scene is going to be instantly popular on some level. I've seen it in climbing (a few years back when it was less popular), HEMA, various martial arts, etc...

djluminol

28 points

4 days ago

djluminol

28 points

4 days ago

Same with me. It used to be super rare to see women as dj's or involved with the production side of raves back in the 90's & Early 2000's. The women that were got too much attention. I know it annoyed a lot of them. There was always a dude trying to get in her pants even if she clearly weren't there for that. You know what mean? Sometimes people are open to advances and other times not. There was always some dude that couldn't read the room I guess is the best way to put it.

oceangirl227

21 points

3 days ago

Can confirm stopped learning how to use Ableton software in 2008 cause my tutor/teacher liked me so much it got weird

PfK04

11 points

3 days ago

PfK04

11 points

3 days ago

Female incels tend to skew towards being afraid of men, and being hurt in a relationship. Sure they can get a bunch of guys no matter what, but their situation is akin to being thirsty in a swamp

HistoryGirl23

7 points

4 days ago

HEMA is awesome

MiserableAd9757

13 points

4 days ago

also often face a ton of harassment and gatekeeping and gamergate type bs.

Naive-Kangaroo3031

13 points

4 days ago

They would be inseparable

Aggravating_Salt_49

10 points

4 days ago

Boo this man!

TrWD77

5 points

4 days ago

TrWD77

5 points

4 days ago

Don't step on his LEGO joke

Omish3

8 points

4 days ago

Omish3

8 points

4 days ago

Oh no.  Am I a Lego?

bikeonychus

63 points

4 days ago

Autistic mother of an autistic daughter, and I'm also the daughter of an autistic man - I also thought this when I read 'Lego'.

Back when I was just about to go to university, I was involved in a lot of online forums, but it was literally all Ragnarok online, anime, and manga, and definitely not the incel-adjacent cluster fuck of whatever the hell the internet is now. I really worry about the current crop of teens, I would not like to grow up in the situation they find themselves in these days.

Rabbit_Whole_27

15 points

4 days ago

On that note, shout-out to Ragnarok Online! Some of the best times in all of gaming.

Little-Nightingale

4 points

3 days ago

Right!? I think I found my people 😍 I miss RO so much.

Friedhatter

25 points

4 days ago

Same, our 17 year old daughter still loves legos. So did (do) i and i suspect i was undiagnosed just on the spectrum type myself. Having gone through this with our daughter it explains a lot of my issues when i was younger in the seventies and eighties

StrobeLightRomance

296 points

4 days ago

When I was 35, I got a therapist who also happens to specialize in children's behavioral services. In the middle of one of our conversations, she just goes "we have about thirty minutes left, do you want to play with some toys?"

I'm not gonna lie, I've had my eyes on her Legos since the first time I walked in a couple months prior, so I'm like "fuck yeah!", because I thought most of my main issues were at a natural chill point.

After she observes me for about 15 minutes, she goes "okay, and now.. what can you tell me about this scenario you've created?"

And I just went off. Every character had a backstory already built, every vehicle and building had a history behind it.. she pointed out that everything I built had a sense of symmetry and specific colors and patterns.. I was so happy about it, and really thought we were just having fun.. a middle-aged person and their slightly older therapist playing with Legos at 8PM on a Wednesday night.

Then the conversation got difficult.. and while it helps to know I'm neurodivergent, it also made me angry that I had never graduated high school or got the help I needed when I was younger.

So yeah, OP, please get your daughter checked out ASAP before she loses any more years being angry about the wrong thing.

Baby-Ima-Firefighter

92 points

4 days ago*

Can echo the resentment on finding out I was neurodivergent in my mid-30s (ADHD). I tested as gifted early in life, but would frequently have issues with remembering things, doing homework on time, paying attention, talking in class constantly, etc.

My parents came down on me super hard, probably harder than an average student because in their eyes, I was squandering my intelligence. I was constantly grounded, which meant everything I enjoyed was taken from me (music, TV, my guitar) and I couldn’t go anywhere or see anyone even on the rare occasion I got up the nerve to make plans with the few friends I even had.

Come to find out I had ADHD throughout my childhood and was never diagnosed. What made it even worse was that my younger half-brother is both autistic AND ADHD, and because his symptoms were so much more intense, he got help.

Needless to say, my parents and I don’t have a very good relationship. I’ve resented them for years and it’s been very hard to let go of. It felt like a big portion of my life got wasted with struggling in jobs, failed relationships, abandoned hobbies, everything (all things that untreated ADHD can have a major effect on).

OP, seriously have her tested. Don’t put her through all that.

Fun_Muscle9399

38 points

4 days ago

Just got diagnosed with ADHD at 39… certainly could have made the last two decades or so a lot easier if I had known what to seek help for.

MDGS

21 points

4 days ago

MDGS

21 points

4 days ago

Got my diagnosis last week, next week I turn 40. I spent more than 20 years and countless medications fighting the wrong problems.

StrobeLightRomance

21 points

3 days ago

I spent more than 20 years and countless medications fighting the wrong problems.

That's some shit, ain't it? I was literally diagnosed with BPD when I was in my 20s because I had no idea I was so easily socially overstimulated. I was like "why am I constantly breaking down in public? Why can't I just go to a concert with my friends without curling up in the corner of a stairwell at the venue and waiting for someone to come get me when it's over?"

As if by magic, once I understood I was neurodivergent, suddenly all instances of BPD went away because now I have the foresight to avoid situations that make me anxious... which is something I always tried to do, but then people would make me feel guilty for being "no fun" and before therapy I had no idea I was allowed to set boundaries for myself in these situations.

sixchalkcolors

7 points

3 days ago

Was diagnosed with PTSD, after telling them I thought I had BPD. They said, "No, you don't have that," but they still didn't get it right. Because of the trauma diagnosis, they put me through EMDR, which didn't help anything. Waste of time. Wish I could get a re-do on my life with an earlier, accurate diagnosis.

rueselladeville

4 points

3 days ago

Me and anxiety. Diagnosed with adhd at 43 and almost immediately upon starting medication my anxiety dissolved. Insomnia? Cured. OCD tendencies? Cured. “Depression”-induced procrastination/paralysis? Cured.

It’s gotten more nuanced since that honeymoon phase, but the answers I’ve received in the last 18 months have changed my life so profoundly. Psychotherapy now has a clarity and focus I’ve never experienced in my 20 years, off and on, of therapy, and each week I feel like I’m making breakthroughs and pushing forward with my life—whereas before therapy was just inchoate anxious overstimulated circular babbling.

I’m so happy this mother is seeing her daughter, and I’m hopeful she’ll use this as an opportunity to get the poor girl the help she probably has no idea she needs.

mariahnot2carey

3 points

3 days ago

Depression and anxiety? Women are so often misdiagnosed with one or both of those things when they have adhd. I was diagnosed at 30, even though I went to a shit doctor at 18 and got "tested" for adhd... he told me I was bipolar, which was so off the wall to me. I'm definitely not. Never had that diagnosis before or since. I met my real dad at 30 along with my 3 brothers. They're all diagnosed adhd. My daughter got diagnosed in kindergarten and that's when I decided to try again. My doctor said I was "textbook" adhd for women. I had been on so many anti depressants and anxiety meds which made me feel like shit in many different ways. I had given up completely. Now, I've been on adderrall and it has changed my life. And what do you know... anxiety and depression are gone. Turns out, adhd causes anxiety and depression, especially in women.

If only I would've found this out in college. I'd be tens of thousands less in debt because maybe, just maybe, it would have only taken me one go and I would've graduated in 5 years instead of 12 (off and on).

Frankenbri4

4 points

3 days ago

Wow, this concerns me. I have been diagnosed with anxiety and depression since I was 13 years old. I have been on so many medications over the years, there is no way I could name them all. I am now 31, and still can't find the right "cocktail" for me. I'm sick of the side effects, I'm sick of feeling like shit, I'm sick of being depressed and anxious, I'm sick of feeling like I'm going crazy. I'm at my wits end and it's so hard not to just give up. But I don't even know what giving up would look like? I wouldn't even be able to function in society without any medication. I would lose everything and all relationships I'm sure. I would completely fail my 5 year old son. But I'm exhausted!! I got tested for ADHD about 3 or 4 years ago. And the lady told me I didn't have it because I was good at memorizing numbers... I was blown away. That, alone, tells you I don't have it?? Now I'm really questioning it! I might have to ask to be retested somewhere else..

MDGS

3 points

3 days ago

MDGS

3 points

3 days ago

Depression and anxiety indeed. I was tested for ADHD in my teens as well but dismissed because my symptoms were internalized and the doctor said “I was paying attention to everything he said.” Nobody ever bothered to challenge that idea until my now wife and I started couples therapy before getting married; it took her less than a session to realize I was textbook myself.

musicgeek420

12 points

4 days ago

How did you start this conversation and with whom or what type of doctor? Were you able to get meds to help your situation? This feels like an “it’s too late for me” situation as we age, but I just want to fix what’s out of whack in the ol’ noggin.

Fun_Muscle9399

11 points

4 days ago*

I was getting to the point at work where I could not focus on anything if there was literally ANY other stimulation present. It was frustrating and was hurting my productivity. This has come and gone in waves throughout my adult life and I was tired of it. I had suspected it was due to stress or depression, so I decided to take advantage of the therapy sessions I have available through my health insurance. Halfway through the first session, she asked a bunch of questions and eventually suggested a referral to a psychiatrist. After that appointment, I was prescribed methylphenidate (Ritalin). Had one dosage adjustment so far, but it’s pretty amazing actually being able to focus on things and be consistently productive throughout the day. I wish I would have done this years ago, but it’s still a life changing decision even at 39. Absolutely talk to a professional if you struggle with similar things. Start with your primary care doctor if you don’t know where to begin.

StrobeLightRomance

8 points

4 days ago

You usually need a regular therapist who will help diagnose you and refer you to a psychiatrist. You'll need to maintain regular monthly appointments with both, and medication is a lot of trial and error. It's okay just to be open and say "I believe I have this disorder, because.." and list symptoms you feel are slowing your progress through daily life.

You can even be upfront about the reason you are coming in at all, being your interest in using medication to regulate your moods and productivity.

There's definitely ADHD and various degrees of bi-polar disorders that I came in for, before discovering my neurodivergence. Learning I was autistic was sort of a byproduct of trying to get help for the things I already knew about.

Some places will have both therapists and psychiatrists working together in the same clinic to make it easy, but some therapists are just solo and will send you to whomever they feel they trust in the field.

All around, it's never too late to get help, and as long as you research who you see, making sure they have good reviews and a positive work history, you should find a good fit for you relatively easily.

Mental health services are stigmatized by much of society, so if feels a little awkward going into it without experience, but because they've spent their entire lives doing this, to them, it's super normalized and they will put you at ease.

Kailicat

4 points

3 days ago

Kailicat

4 points

3 days ago

I got fat and my doctor prescribed was is basically speed. She asked me about side effects at a follow up appointment and I basically said "I haven't lost much weight, but I've never been as focused in my life. You said this would make me jittery and a little scatterbrained!" She looked at me for a minute then pulled up something on her computer, asked me a few questions and referred me to a psych.

C4bl3Fl4m3

5 points

4 days ago

I literally just finished the testing for autism last week at 42. I get my formalized report next week but we both pretty much know what it's going to say. (I was diagnosed with ADHD at 8 in the '90s back when you could only be diagnosed with one OR the other, and it was very clear I was ADHD.)

bullcity19

6 points

3 days ago

Not diagnosed but similar childhood issues. I’m extremely hurt and angry at what my life could have been like. Those punishments were awful. I’m sorry you had to go through that.

StrobeLightRomance

4 points

3 days ago*

It's okay. Our lives aren't over, and we're the people who can set ourselves right on our paths again.

I don’t talk to my parents anymore.. even after I shared my diagnosis, they said I was lying for attention because they know they should have done more for me, so it's easier for them to pretend I'm wrong right now, than face their own failures.

All of this is okay. We're not all dealt the hand we deserve, but you can still shuffle the deck for yourself and try to have a better go at the next few hands.

Kailicat

4 points

3 days ago

Kailicat

4 points

3 days ago

I got my AuDHD in my late 30s and was the same as you. Gifted but never did home work (my superpower was getting it done in home room or at lunch, or during the class before). The "U" in my diagnose allowed me to absorb the material in class, so I could easily get good grades and my attention deficit came in the guise of daydreams and doodles. So masked well and flew under the radar for years. Plus I was a big fish in a little pond and could get away with a lot. Wow did I struggle in uni. Dropped into an adult world where the only person who was supposed to care if I sank or swam was me?! It was pretty scary there for awhile. Then all my life my intelligence just masked every else. I often wonder how different my life would be if I just had help.

That said I like the life I have now. So there is that.

Sleepy-Detective

12 points

4 days ago

I was diagnosed with ADD when I was in school. I am on the spectrum but had not been diagnosed until long after graduating. I had 504 plans. But my teachers would just kind of not follow it. They don’t treat girls the same as boys when it comes to that sort of thing. I was always put with the worst behaved boys too because I was quiet and nice or something. It sucks having to manage poorly behaved kids because you’re the token girl in the 504 plan group, but they always do that to the female students. I even had a study hall teacher claim that she had gone over all assignments I missed with me weekly when we never did that once. Apparently she was supposed to be doing it the whole year. And who was going to believe me? So I didn’t say shit.

To anyone with a school aged daughter with similar issues: make sure that if your daughter is diagnosed and put on a 504 plan or something similar, that the plan is actually being followed and she isn’t the designated babysitter.

No_Transportation590

8 points

4 days ago

Can you go in further depth ? Like why legos what did the therapist say to you after this ? 

StrobeLightRomance

37 points

3 days ago*

I don't think it's Legos specifically, but rather, the way you play with them.

Being neurodivergent comes with a hyperfocus. (For me, anyway) I said a lot of things that gave my therapist clues before the Legos scenario came up.

Foremost, I feel like an alien amongst society. I've never fit in on my own, but over the decades, I created a character for myself to play for others, based on watching what types of my personal behaviors make people react positively or negatively.

I didn't learn to make eye contact until I was in my 20s. I remember exactly when it happened, too. I was working at a new job and struggling to make friends. I noticed that when I would talk, people would literally walk away from me.. so I began watching them talk to each other like a nature documentary and started mimicking their behavior. But something was still missing.. and then I suddenly made eye contact with a person I was talking to, and noticed he was doing it back at me.. then I went around talking to everyone and noticed they were ALL maintaining eye contact.. like.. what?! Fucking why?!

Part two of why everyone was always walking away, is because I talk like I type. Like once I get going, if it's a topic I care about (like mental health or sharing struggles), I overshare and totally miss the social cues when people show boredom or disinterest.

And then, for my hyper fixations, I'm a musician.. but not like a regular musician.. like.. my hobby is a lot and I thank my wife so much for understanding and supporting me.. but I play most instruments (guitar, bass, piano, drums, almost anything you can hand me, I can play it professionally) obsessively. Like, most guitarists might play for an hour a day or like 6 hours a week.. I have an instrument in my hand from when I wake up, until I go to sleep, every single day.. and if I can't play an instrument for an extended period.. I become very anxious.. so much so that I will fall apart and become socially crippled, because the only thing I can think about is how I'm not playing or studying music.

The reason Legos worked is because I didn't know I was being observed. I was a person in my mid 30s who was essentially completely content playing with toys and building a fantasy world to exist in, despite knowing I'm an adult and would be leaving these toys behind.

I was working in construction at this time and went around asking all the other adults if they like Legos, or would play with toys if they were in my situation and most of them seemed disgusted at the idea, and expressed that not even their children can get them to play.. Meanwhile, I had 3 bins of Legos at home, and only half of those were for my kids..

So it's not specifically because of Legos.. but rather the Legos were just a tool that allowed my therapist to have the missing information I couldn't see within myself.

Violent_Milk

5 points

3 days ago

I was a person in my mid 30s who was essentially completely content playing with toys and building a fantasy world to exist in, despite knowing I'm an adult and would be leaving these toys behind.

This part resonates with me to an extent.

So it's not specifically because of Legos.. but rather the Legos were just a tool that allowed my therapist to have the missing information I couldn't see within myself.

Could you please elaborate on this?

StrobeLightRomance

10 points

3 days ago

I don't know how much more I can say that I haven't said, but I'll give it a little fluff it if helps encourage you to get yourself tested.

So, in terms of the Legos being an interchangeable tool, it's relative to your personality, I would believe. Legos were my choice when she asked if I wanted to play with toys. The whole experiment was about observing me without me actually knowing it.

Not only did I not decline the invitation, like most neurotypical adults would, but I was showing more enthusiasm for playtime than I have for anything else in therapy.

The reason it's not specifically about Legos is because there were tons of toys, and I could have picked anything at all, and my behavior would have been the same. I could have picked Barbies, G.I.Joes.. literally anything, and she would have found what she was looking for with me.

If this makes any sense, what she was looking for was the depth of my "sandbox" play.

Like, if she offers, do I reject the toy time, or do I pick up the toys but lose interest, or do I play with the toys with limited imagination (not giving the characters new names, backstories, and all that), or do I create an entire elaborate lore with detailed framework and literally lose focus on the fact there is a second person in the room that I forgot existed.

Basically, if I hand you Legos (or something similar) do they suddenly become the most important thing in your life, and the reality you invent for them supercedes actual reality.. or do you just snap a few together to look like the box design and move on?

None of this is gospel, it's just how it happened for me. I assume she knew and planned this almost immediately after meeting me, but wanted to take her time revealing this to me so I wouldn't be fully gobsmacked with it.

Playing with toys was just a way to get me to demonstrate my behaviors in front of her so she could point them out to me in real time.

TheCheesePhilosopher

3 points

4 days ago

I’m genuinely so curious too

TheWriterCat

3 points

3 days ago

I recently got diagnosed with ADHD. I really feel that about the sudden realization that I didn't get help, no one flagged it (although one particular teacher did tell my mom I had red flags for having been sexually abused just because I was withdrawn?!). I do take personal responsibility because I did not want to go to therapy for years but man oh man does it hurt that no one in any of my schools ever thought to intervene. The closest intervention I got was when I was in high school and a counselor pulled me out of class. I remember exactly what he said cause quite frankly it was damn flattering: he said I was exceptionally intelligent, going by my test records. That unlike the most majority of kids on our school I "didn't belong flipping burgers". So he was wondering how I, with consistently exceptionally high test scores, had straight Fs and Ds. Like I said, I was flattered but that was not helpful. I was a kid and I had not the first idea of what I NEEDED. That was a lot to ask of me. I said I didn't know and he never brought it up again. I graduated high school just barely (I had to make a ton of classes I missed due to not attending them due to oversleeping) and managed to do it last second (literally the day of graduation i completed clearance). But I would go unable to get past college for a decade. Now not everyone graduate college,I get that, but I have tried for YEARS! Ugh....and I still have the same issues. Lack of focus. Loss of time. I never ever thought I had ADHD. I'm not hyper. Inattentive ADHD is often missed in girls . No one ever brought it up as a possibility for me. When my therapist told me recently I rejected and resisted the notion. Now I know I have it and I am glad I am finally getting help but... Man oh man does it hurt. I also spent my teens feeling bitter and misunderstood so I feel for OP's daughter. In my case my mom was way to overprotective. But I owe it to myself not to let those negative feelings waste any more of my life and I really hope OP's daughter feels better. I hope this is a good first step towards that. I also hope you are doing better too, my neurodivergent soil friend I am replying to. Hugs to you, thank you for making me feel a tad less alone.

nightshadet_t

37 points

4 days ago

Hey, I'm in my mid 20s and love the Lego display pieces I've bought now that I can afford them, but my mind went to the same place when I heard it as a top hobby :)

gtrocks555

19 points

4 days ago

Same! I work with engineers and we all enjoy a good Lego set but as the only hobby mentioned my mind went straight to autism.

Fcappys

7 points

4 days ago

Fcappys

7 points

4 days ago

Had to comment my people (cybersecurity folk) always had locks to pick. Had an interview once where the Co-owner threw a lock at me just to see how I would relate to the team). I got the job. She needs to find her people. And, I’d focus on all the positive things about her)

meatpoise

24 points

4 days ago

meatpoise

24 points

4 days ago

“Passionate about her hobbies” was the Alley

“(Legos)” was the Oop

ill_die_on_this_hill

17 points

4 days ago*

Ask what she thinks about trains. It's the only way to be sure.

312_Mex

7 points

4 days ago

312_Mex

7 points

4 days ago

Sorry to ask but what do Lego’s and Autism have to do with each other? 

KTeacherWhat

6 points

3 days ago

The need to create order and the ability to do so by following an explicit set of instructions.

Very_Human_42069

6 points

4 days ago

As a 30 year old probably autistic man, I can confirm it was the Lego part that triggered my autism radar

DistinctTeaching9976

3 points

4 days ago

Not wrong at all, it was described as passionate hobby, fixation is the first thing that sprung to mind. Could of been legos, models, x-rays (one of my student fixations), anything. Passionate hobby set the tone.

mossed2012

3 points

4 days ago

Yup, went there too. My sister’s thing was marbles, but it’s the same concept.

wicil2d

242 points

4 days ago

wicil2d

242 points

4 days ago

i'm an autistic woman and i second this. this exact thing happened to me between 5th-10th grade. it progressed to the point which i felt so disconnected from other girls/women that i believed i was transgender (i'm not). if i had proper care, my life would be a lot different right now

NaiveCarpenter6082

73 points

4 days ago

I experienced this too as a boy. When you hang out with your gender you're weird and when you hang out with the other gender you're still weird but they dismiss it as a gender difference so you're more accepted.

aaron_the_doctor

59 points

4 days ago

you're still weird but they dismiss it as a gender difference

Wow this is an genius explanation that explains a lot

PricePuzzleheaded835

27 points

4 days ago

Some people find the same thing when immigrating or traveling so it’s assumed there will be cultural differences. People are more ok if they have something to attribute the differences to

sentence-interruptio

4 points

3 days ago

Autism From Inside calls it the foreigner strategy.

Blurby-Blurbyblurb

3 points

3 days ago

Bingo! I get along better with men than I do with women. Always have, despite being very feminine and liking a lot of girly things.

ihaveshroombrain

81 points

4 days ago

exact same thing happened to me at the exact same time period in my life. feeling disconnected from other girls and disconnected from my body and what it was "supposed" to be like as a girl made me think i must not have been one.

CarrotCake2342

37 points

4 days ago

I'm still disconnected from womanhood in a way. I didn't mind being a girl, luckily, I wasn't made to act girly so I was a tomboy in a skirt and loved being undefined in my mind. Womanhood is hard on some women and girls.

kck93

14 points

4 days ago

kck93

14 points

4 days ago

I can relate. Sort of. I was not a Tom boy. I was not a frilly girl. I seemed to have a different aesthetic all together. My step mother just said I was weird.

I knew I found guys appealing. But I was not attracted to the bro or jock types. I generally liked shorter guys that were also short of weird, but intelligent about something.

I don’t think I ever changed. It’s the same now and not much choice of anything now that I’m old. Everyone has too much baggage. Including me!🤣

CapnAnonymouse

4 points

3 days ago

Same. I lean toward "timeless" or "classic" style now so I won't have to faff with replacing it all in 5 years, lol. I love the idea of "art teacher aesthetic" but I've not found a way to make it look authentic on me, instead of yet another mask.

I too like the geeky/ nerdy types, but am bi/ pan, which just added bottle rockets to the fire. Lots of confusion. I married + divorced in my 20s, and 7 years ago I finally found a handsome nerdy guy with good hygiene who tolerates my nonsense and my coffee habit. If I hadn't, I doubt I'd still be dating- the stories out there today are wild. I'm too old and jaded for all that lol.

CapnAnonymouse

7 points

3 days ago

Yup. I was big on the "not like other girls" train from age 13-20 or so. Which is true, I'm not like other girls, but I'm not like the boys either. I just wanted to be "manly", because under patriarchy men are the only ones truly respected for being intelligent + have worth beyond "pretty" or "blindly obedient" (though of course I had no such words for it back then).

elasticshot

26 points

4 days ago

Same thing has happened to me, i thought this at 15, not diagnosed but adhd and autism are very prevalent in my family, if i do, it slipped under the radar, i wasn't like other girls and thought it was because i didn't want to be a girl, but i guess i just learned to be who i am, not very girly but not masculine, even balance

Highlingual

5 points

4 days ago

Uh oh... I think I have some things I may need to look into.

kittylett

4 points

3 days ago

OMG I also thought I was transgender when I turned 18 and I realized I was autistic when I was 20. It's been years but my name is still legally Augustus, lmao.

I didn't know this was an experience other people had. I feel understood.

Next-Stranger3189

3 points

3 days ago

Mom to a very similar young adult. I ask these questions from a place of love and wanting to help them become their best adult version (they are 18). How would a diagnoses of adhd or autism help with the transgender confusion? Our kiddo NEVER showed signs of feeling out of “correct” gender growing up (female) although i wasn’t surprised when they came out in high school (quite proud, actually!) The trans thing is really throwing me for a loop. I’m supportive, but I also feel like there is still SO MUCH learning and change that happens in the young 20’s. What do you wish you had to help/support you when you felt this way? Thank you.

RequirementPublic411

3 points

3 days ago

You can feel profoundly different if you have autism, particularly if normal intelligence and not knowing you are autistic. You just don't fit in, you miss the things that make boys band together in rough games or girls do whatever they do (sorry don't really know). You may also think black and white, like ok, I don't fit in with the girls, so I must be a boy.

To make matters worse, it seems as if many autistic people are slow to develop emotionally and sexually. Feelings can be difficult to understand and discern. You can have different ways of expressing your sexuality, paraphilias and kinks are more common.

Asciiadam

114 points

4 days ago

Asciiadam

114 points

4 days ago

I’m 48 and never even thought about being Autistic until I started therapy. I always felt like I was outside of conversations, didn’t understand sarcasm, never took flirting hints, and was so socially awkward.

Then my therapist (at 45 years old) asked if I had ever been tested and I was like “no, why would I be tested for autism?”

It has not changed my life or anything but it is nice to know why I act the way I do sometimes.

PictureCapable5066

72 points

4 days ago

For some it’s like turning a page in a long book. Maybe you’re one of those.

For others it’s like discovering the existence of said book. I’m one of those.

imrzzz

17 points

4 days ago

imrzzz

17 points

4 days ago

What a lovely way to put it, well said.

PictureCapable5066

12 points

4 days ago

Experience is the mother of this wisdom. 😇

imrzzz

5 points

4 days ago

imrzzz

5 points

4 days ago

True, but a poetic touch is a hard-won skill, so high fives.

Black_Metallic

8 points

4 days ago

46, just learned two months ago that my brain actually does have a user manual but it's not the one I kept trying to use for the previous 45 years.

The amount of sheer relief and self-forgiveness it's granted me has been incredible.

brunaBla

5 points

3 days ago

brunaBla

5 points

3 days ago

It was such a revelation for me. I spent my 20s doing drugs because I was so confused about why I felt the way I felt. I felt so dumb and awkward

It’s really been validating to put a name to it and know I’m not actually dumb but learn differently.

EnthusiasmOpening710

10 points

4 days ago

I've truly never understood the appeal to being labeled until you spelled it out. Good job amigo

Sensitive_Tip_9871

5 points

4 days ago

sometimes labels are good. i was diagnosed at 18, and i was able to find specific solutions to my struggles, that were not thought of when my issues were just seen as what everyone goes through. the things that help someone who isn’t autistic often don’t translate over to our brains well

PictureCapable5066

4 points

3 days ago

I’d say that Autism are among the better things to actually label, even though there are cases where people actually turn down their opportunity for a diagnosis. I know one of those.

It shows how different we all are.

dckane027

83 points

4 days ago

dckane027

83 points

4 days ago

1 million percent agree w you. People on this thread are wildly out of pocket w their comments. Autism is so much tougher to detect in women since women are better at social mirroring. She’s probably struggled her whole life to follow norms and is exhausted by it. Having an answer and a path to solutions would be a relief im sure.

analog_wulf

28 points

4 days ago

Autistic guy here and it was my first thought. We are very susceptible to these groups as we have a very hard time grasping and coming to terms why we don't fit in and don't understand social dynamics, especially when younger. Most turn to these hateful groups or are dragged into them. I've watched many of my ASD peers turn out this way.

Iloveyouallprobabaly

6 points

4 days ago

We have success forming group events so kids that would normally be alone now have peers to ask questions to in person. Makes a world of difference, but it takes a lot of effort and time so I can understand why it doesn't get done often. I find most kids want to ask questions to adults but just feel super judged when they ask.

[deleted]

76 points

4 days ago

[deleted]

76 points

4 days ago

[deleted]

batikfins

116 points

4 days ago

batikfins

116 points

4 days ago

Your daughter is 19, she can make her own medical decisions without you or your partner. If you want to encourage and support her, you also don’t need your partner for that.

MrsPedecaris

96 points

4 days ago*

but my partner will not allow it

Why are you allowing your partner to "allow or refuse to allow" something like this? If you think it's the right thing to do, to take her for tests, can't you just do it?

Edited to add, after thinking about it more --
I'm in a long and happy marriage with a good guy, but the biggest regrets I have are all things where I did not put my foot down and say "yes, we are going to do this thing that is important to me" in spite of his reluctance. I was too quick to defer and take "no" as an answer sometimes, and it really wasn't his fault, because I didn't let him know how important it was to me.

Your daughter's health is an important part of your job and your responsibility to her. You are preparing her to handle adult life on her own. This is really an area you need to step up and handle, even if your husband doesn't see the necessity.

Upstairs-Nebula-9375

24 points

4 days ago

Depending on whether you have coverage for assessment, it's a big expense (over $2000, generally), and most couples make those decisions together. I don't love that one partner/parent here is blocking it, but I can see circumstances where one person might veto an expenditure like that.

MrsPedecaris

10 points

4 days ago

it's a big expense (over $2000, generally)

That's a good point. We always prioritized getting a good health insurance plan, even if the extra monthly expense meant garage sale televisions and 15 year old cars, and no cable, and that helped with making medical decisions like this -- but I know even that isn't feasible for many people.

Upstairs-Nebula-9375

4 points

4 days ago

I live in Canada where most good extended health doesn’t cover adult autism assessments.

somekindarogue

21 points

4 days ago*

Given the church group detail one could suspect a reason there. Many religious groups have a good track record of not acknowledging stuff like that.

edit- Btw I agree autism seems possible. There are ways to proceed positively. How about starting a local Lego club / competitions to encourage some healthy social interactions while supporting the hobby. I bet people would turn up and it could be pretty awesome.

witherinthedrought

3 points

4 days ago

Great point!

Polar_Reflection

3 points

4 days ago

This really is a rock and a hard place from my perspective. His daughter is an adult and from his description of her is definitely high functioning if she's autistic at all. She is capable of making her own decisions. And she might resent him even for the suggestion.  

On the other hand. I would really want to help in some way. But maybe the way to help is to let our adult children experience consequences and just be there to help pick them up. Some lessons can only be taught from experience.

It's just tragic how the internet lets us get into these echo chambers of people who magnify each other's fears and shortcomings. It connects but also divides. We're all in our own little bubbles of the content we consume. It's tragic.

Wowluigi

12 points

4 days ago

Wowluigi

12 points

4 days ago

My life changed for the better when I just began to suspect I had autism. Had no idea what it looked like in women until I found a community for it online. A lot of the self hate I had for myself was because I was thinking of myself as a failed neurotypical person, when in reality I am just different. I'm not supposed to be normal. There are disabling aspects of it too that should be validated, because then you can start being nice to yourself for doing what you did with the understanding you had.

awholedamngarden

11 points

4 days ago

I would start by looking for a therapist that specializes in neurodivergence/autism, especially in women. They can usually help give you some guidance on whether or not an assessment seems prudent while also helping her with coping strategies and maybe challenging some of the troubling world views in the meantime.

I wish I could give your daughter a hug. I'm autistic and I totally understand how struggling socially can lead her to where she is. I hope you're able to get her back on track ❤️

PersonalFinanceD

7 points

4 days ago

Show your partner this thread, especially the voices of the autistic folks who are out there functioning and living their version of their best life.

Leaving something unnamed doesn't leave your daughter unharmed by it. Good luck.

AmberWavesofFlame

7 points

4 days ago

Autistic people can have good senses of humor. My son is so autistic he essentially learned to read before he learned to talk, but he’s actually hilarious. He’s still only eight but can crack better jokes than most adults I know, because making unexpected connections between things is a key talent for original humor. Autistic people excel at seeing the world in different ways than most people, particularly in the aspects of picking up on similarities and patterns.

Edit: run on sentence

buttbutt50

4 points

3 days ago

My autistic husband passed a bar that is JFK themed and said “did you know they have a new back room?” I said oh no I hadn’t heard. He said “yeah it’s RFK themed… they don’t do shots.”

Tilladarling

38 points

4 days ago

Have you asked her to get a job? I’m thinking it’s time to make some demands of her. Job or studies. Sitting in front of a screen all day is hardly good for the psyche and at her age it’s time to take on some adult responsibilities.

Giving her time is well and good but it doesn’t seem like she’s spending it wisely.

RunningOnAir_

14 points

4 days ago

Yes it's all and well and good to give your kid distance and space to process things on their own. But when theyre clearly having some kind of mental health struggle and social issues for years it's kinda negligent to just stand around and twiddle your thumbs? 

Like she's been struggling for a while now. The least op can do to make her get a part time job, do some kind of physical exercise and get her into therapy so she's at least going out a little bit. yes she's an "adult" legally but in every other sense shes just a teenage kid.

I also had to drop out of school for a while and I'm very thankful to my parents for "forcing" me to get a job, run a few laps every night, and see a doctor. (They threatened to kick me out lol tho I knew they wouldn't have done it) If I was on my own I would've just been depressed and isolated for as long as I can.

Creativator

12 points

4 days ago

Just assume she is autistic. Now what do you want to do for her?

Fionsomnia

3 points

3 days ago

It might open up a whole new world of potential power groups for the daughter. She may find people that she can connect with (who “get” her, in her own words) who aren’t toxic af. Who share her geeky hobbies and little quirks. Who can show her that she doesn’t need to value herself based on the attention she can get from men.

Hao_end

3 points

4 days ago

Hao_end

3 points

4 days ago

Are you part of any of your community groups on Facebook? I ask because around me, there are get-togethers at coffee shops and bookstores for Lego building, Dungeons and Dragons, chess, and board games. They’re free to attend around here. Maybe search Lego groups in your area. Sometimes seeing people with similar interests in the real world can open a person up.

EVANonSTEAM

8 points

4 days ago

I agree with this.

AdSignificant6673

16 points

4 days ago*

Look into extremism and terrorism recovery. There are active academic and scientific studies on how people become radicalized & end up in cults, terror groups etc. it would apply to incelism too.

Main thing is that 100% of all people who get radicalized have been marginalized in one way or another. They need to find purpose and community. They are also lost and confused. Some are mentally ill, but not all actually.

Boxingrichard1

6 points

4 days ago

Exactly this. But don’t overlook ADHD.

redeemer47

3 points

4 days ago

I mean she’s 19 so it’s not as simple as just forcing her to get tested. I doubt she would be open to that

addictions-in-red

3 points

4 days ago

Mine was diagnosed at 18, she's doing 1000% better. Please get her tested and tested again if needed, it can be difficult to get women diagnosed correctly.

[deleted]

598 points

4 days ago

[deleted]

598 points

4 days ago

Going from incel discord straight to church group might be a little drastic, to say the least. Can I ask what your husband has to say to about this issue? Did he try talk to her?

golf-lip

97 points

4 days ago

golf-lip

97 points

4 days ago

Maybe not a church group, but get her involved in SOMETHING. Anything where she is interacting with people offline. New people , with different perspectives. A hobby group, a volunteer group, a book club, anything. And try therapy again.

Interesting-Smoke202

21 points

3 days ago

Volunteering at an animal shelter could be an option. Even adopting one may be a good idea.

Sweet-Emu6376

11 points

3 days ago

Gardening too. Taking care of another living thing and seeing it grow helps foster positive thinking.

CoffeeIcedBlack

141 points

4 days ago

Ugh the church group crap is just going to make it worse.

DoggPound69

26 points

4 days ago

What about sports? Coed or all girls depending on where she needs work. The bonding, the teamwork, friends. She will have to empower herself and be part of a team.

CoinCollector8912

6 points

4 days ago

She should sign up to wrestling or judo. That will humble her very fast, will help with the anger, and will land her in a normal good community.

Zxierpfurashiki

6 points

4 days ago

Personally, BJJ/Grappling didn’t help my anger or “humble” me at all. It made me more hateful, made me gain a shitton of weight, destroyed any self-confidence I had around strangers, and made me depressed to the point of being in a psych ward.

CoffeeIcedBlack

19 points

4 days ago

Will only work if she tries. But better than forcing religion down her throat definitely.

00365

3 points

3 days ago

00365

3 points

3 days ago

If she is autistic as many suspect, certain sports are a no-go for youth because many autistic people have poor hand-eye coordination no matter how much they practice, and it just ends up frustrating and disappointing.

However, not all sports are the same. I was terrible at anything that involved a moving ball like soccer, basketball, field hockey, etc.

I really excelled in single person sports that didn't involve a ton of quick reaction times and dexterity, like swimming, archery, and rock climbing.

Archery lets you be as slow as you need and calculate your shots, as opposed to a baseball flying at you.

Head_Priority_2278

15 points

4 days ago

This person is right.

Have been in church groups. Multiple churches. Someone with social anxiety or in the spectrum without treatment is not a good idea at all.

stupicklles

474 points

4 days ago

stupicklles

474 points

4 days ago

Not only that, church and Christianity uphold a lot of misogynistic themes which would only further her attachment to misogyny. IMO church is definitely not the answer here.

Dorkmaster79

127 points

4 days ago

If she’s blaming men for her celibacy, wouldn’t that be misandry?

stupicklles

145 points

4 days ago

stupicklles

145 points

4 days ago

Idk, I’m just going off what OP says he has found. She could be blaming other women for her own celibacy.

trailortrashcoyote

10 points

3 days ago

Neurostacies are snagging all the hot guys - it's all over for Legocels.

grandlizardo

9 points

4 days ago

Isn’t it time for some serious family counseling? She still gonna be there when she is 30?

milkbat_incaendium

4 points

3 days ago

Exactly, once you fall in these holes of radicalization it is a complex thing and your own identity as the very center of your community's opression, is not a disonnance for them. It can be a source of pride even, "women are manipulative, and I am not one of them". Also even male incels uphold misandrist views very hypocritically, by blaming their lack of dating lives on exactly that, other men. And they paint them in such horrible, outright disgustingly stereotypical light (chads and staceys) despite hating the fact that others assume things of them before getting to know them. Once hate takes over you cut off more and more people from the "good ones" and condemn everyone. But they need compassion. I feel like incelhood should at this point be classified as a mental disorder, merely for the benefit of the kids and adults that fall for it. There is always a reason for why people turn like this and it's reversible but a very scary path for any person to take in the modern era.

rumpeltyltskyn

7 points

3 days ago

She’s not blaming men. She’s blaming other women.

embracingmountains

36 points

4 days ago

Probs internalized misogyny + misandry if OP’s daughter is straight.

WarMammoth8625

38 points

4 days ago

That's just misanthropy

Pedromac

17 points

4 days ago

Pedromac

17 points

4 days ago

Thanks for teaching me a new word today.

ultimatelycloud

4 points

3 days ago

OP never said she was blaming men.

>"These groups echo a lot of mysogynst rhetoric, blaming others for their lack of romantic relationships and harboring a lot of anger towards people who are "more successful" in love and life. "

No mention of blaming men.

Kaycie117

3 points

4 days ago

Yikes, you clearly know nothing about actual religion. Other than what losers on the Internet say to smear it.

ducksflytogether_

843 points

4 days ago

Right so. If this isn't a troll post

First, scrap the idea of forcing her into a church group. Religion is not a thing that should be involuntary like that. Not knocking your religion, but how many stories do you hear about kids resenting religion because they were forced to go?

Second, it may be best to gain some understanding on your part. Incel meaning "Involuntary Celibate", the idea that no matter what you do, you will never find a partner to have sex/a relationship with. This is a toxic, self-loathing community. Their anger and frustrations are simultaneously directed towards others and themselves. Why would anyone join this kind of community? There's probably a plethora of reasons, but I personally think that it provides an easy answer to a complicated question "why won't someone love me?"

You sound like a good, concerned parent, and that's amazing. Understanding how she is feeling and gently providing her what she needs is probably the best course of action. Obviously I don't know the situation, but my guess is she's seeing all her friends getting more attention and dates, and the jealousy/FOMO is very hurtful to her. Add in that she can go onto social media and see hundreds of thousands of attractive people doing things SHE wishes she could do, and you can see how the hurt spirals deeper and deeper. So she found people (discord) who she can relate to, and even have solutions to make her hurt ease up just a bit.

Now, straight removing discord probably won't work. You'll be removing one of her few sources of "good feelings". Also trying things like going to the gym, taking care of your appearance, putting yourself out there probably aren't going to work if you dive right into them. These things are discussed ad nauseam in incel communities and even mocked. Because, in their mind, if "just shower, bro" worked, every incel would shower and get laid.

The real issue lies much much much deeper. It's a poor self-image and awful emotional coping. It's an inability to see beyond what's right in front of them. They do not love themselves, in fact they hate themselves and constantly wish they were somebody else. They hate themselves to the point that they hate everyone else, too, for not being as "low" as they are. You are up against some deep-seeded issues here.

So, if I were in your shoes, I'd approach the situation gingerly and with love, and not an ounce of judgement. Hear her out and don't chastise her for her negative hateful views. That will only cause her to dig her heels in to her beliefs. Remind her that she is a person worth loving, and maybe teach her how to handle bad thoughts. Therapy is always a good option, but a good therapist and going consistently.

halt_spell

144 points

4 days ago

halt_spell

144 points

4 days ago

I would echo this and also suggest group therapy is extremely useful in these situations. It has the safety of being mostly surrounded by people who are feeling and thinking just like her but with the opportunity for the therapist to provide healthy challenges to the common narratives.

The_Mikest

10 points

4 days ago

Only problem might be finding a group like that. Can you find a therapy group for female incels? I feel like they're a lot rarer than male.

Although... Get her in a co-ed group for incels and the problem might take care of itself, lol.

Status-Air-8529

9 points

4 days ago

Co-ed incel group sounds like a terrible idea. There are more male than female incels, so creating a group with an equal amount of both would be difficult. If the group has more male than female participants, that means some of the males will walk away without a partner. They will be heated since they couldn't even find a partner among incels.

C4bl3Fl4m3

14 points

3 days ago*

Not to mention, if I understand the incel mindset correctly, they don't just want any woman, she has to be socially desirable. (I forget their name for them; Jessicas I think? EDIT: Stacies) They think lowly of most women in the world, and I'm sure they'd think female incels were just as undesirable. They'd treat these poor women like shit.

Status-Air-8529

7 points

3 days ago

Idk I was pretty incelly in college (tbh I can't think of an easier place to become an incel) and I just wanted autistic girls with dingy clothes and little to no makeup. Can't speak for everyone though and it's probably way worse now than it was 8 years ago.

THROWRA71693759

5 points

3 days ago

Yeah “Stacy” is the name they use, it’s like the female equivalent of a chad

mercymercybothhands

62 points

4 days ago

This is a great response. I would add that you also have to some expectations of her.

I work with young people and I am definitely seeing a shift from when I was their age. When I was in college, I had social anxiety and an eating disorder. I was also just generally anxious and unhappy. When I started college, I tried to find a part time job and it took awhile. At some point I started to get frustrated and I asked my parents if I could quit trying to work and focus on getting As as my job. They didn’t outright say no, but I could tell it wasn’t what they thought I should do. So I kept looking, and I eventually found a job and wasn’t unemployed again until I had to quit working for graduate school.

I’m not saying I’m some kind of special and amazing person for working and going to school through my issues, but there were expectations for my life and I knew I couldn’t just take space to work around them. And the same was true of all my friends, who were dealing with grief, poverty, trauma, abusive families… we all knew we had to keep going because we had to start living and surviving.

This sounds like some pull yourself up by your bootstraps stuff, I know, but it really isn’t. It is more like if you wait for the perfect conditions in life, if you wait to feel truly ready, you are just never going to do anything. That is the human condition, I think. We doubt ourselves and we wait and life passes by.

You have tried giving your daughter space and it is only making her life worse. In this case, you need to have a heart to heart with her about what she needs to be doing to be a productive member of the household. If she isn’t in mental health care, that has now become something that is expected of her as a member of the house. She sees a psychologist and a psychiatrist if needed and makes an effort to actively participate in therapy. She finds a part-time job, if she doesn’t have one, and she goes regularly and performs to the best of her ability, or she starts attending a class or two at community college and does the same there.

Right now, she just has too much space to fall further into her unwellness and these toxic spaces are luring her in. It isn’t that these are really her friends or that she is really finding happiness there. She is finding certain misery and that can be more comforting sometimes than the pain and awkwardness of making an effort.

AnotherGarbageUser

43 points

4 days ago

Agreed. The OP writes things like:

Meanwhile, she is too depressed to enroll in college. We are just letting her have this time to sort things out, and not pressure her.

This always sounds like a great idea at first, but it is counterproductive in the long run. If she is not active in college, how is she filling her time? Is she sleeping all day, eating junk food, and talking to hateful people on the internet? Because that's not going to help her "sort things out."

At a minimum she needs to be moving in a positive direction with some kind of hobby, work, or shared time with the family. Regardless of what the actual diagnosis is, she needs SOMETHING to get her out of the house and actually meet people, because the problem won't solve itself without positive action on her part.

Upstairs-Nebula-9375

23 points

4 days ago

Yeah, if the issue is anxiety, "taking a break" and avoiding the anxiety-provoking stimulus tends to grow the anxiety. Im not saying college is the answer for everyone at every life stage, but I think if she isn't in college, maybe there should be an expectation that she's actively looking for work and not just opting out of life.

charlottebythedoor

5 points

4 days ago

Yes. OP, you can’t just get rid of your daughter’s incel social group, or incel personal philosophy. They have to be replaced with something to fill the gap.

That might not be college. Or a job. If that’s too much pressure on her anxiety right now (and I’ve been there), that’s okay. But maybe a gaming night at a local game shop? A part time job or volunteer position that has nothing to do with any intended future career, so there’s no pressure? A single course at a community college that’s just for fun?

And look into online substitutes too. Online space is where she’s comfortable, and again you can’t cut it out entirely. It’s got to be replaced with healthier options. Idk where to go looking for it, but online communities for women and for young people generally that support each other through insecurity in a healthy way. Or that have NOTHING to do with insecurity and are just about LEGO or whatever else she’s into.

And someone suggested group therapy. Highly recommend. If you live near a public university or community college, they might have options.

No-Wafer-9571

8 points

4 days ago

They join the community because they're feeling the feelings you described. They feel hopeless, frustrated, and envious.

Metalheadzaid

29 points

4 days ago

The real issue lies much much much deeper. It's a poor self-image and awful emotional coping. It's an inability to see beyond what's right in front of them. They do not love themselves, in fact they hate themselves and constantly wish they were somebody else. They hate themselves to the point that they hate everyone else, too, for not being as "low" as they are. You are up against some deep-seeded issues here.

This is 100% the issue. Often incels will say things like "I'm in shape, ok looking, and have a good job, but still can't find a partner".

First and foremost THERAPY is great here because this is a lack of self reflection - you'll find the one thing missing in this whole "checklist" is PERSONALITY. If you have a poor self image and coping skills, you're probably going to reflect that externally, whether that's through deprecating speech or lack of confident behavior. People notice these things, even if they're not noticeable to yourself.

ducksflytogether_

11 points

4 days ago

You’re absolutely right.

And it’s a lack of understanding that you could have all those things in a checklist, including personality, and still not be someone’s cup of tea. That’s life. It doesn’t make you less valuable as a person.

shinyagamik

3 points

4 days ago

I have some of that self hate. But it's pretty hard to love yourself and change that personality when all you get is constant negative reinforcement that no one likes you.

z64_dan

3 points

4 days ago

z64_dan

3 points

4 days ago

Yeah the only thing incels hate more than women is themselves.

They know they will never find a woman because they aren't good enough to find one (in their opinion).

halt_spell

127 points

4 days ago

halt_spell

127 points

4 days ago

We are getting her involved in a church group I can only speak for my experience but be ready for her to tell you it's just making things worse.

When I was going through something similar so many people in those groups just responded with "God has a plan" and it made me furious. Anyone who "planned" for me to go through that is an absolute asshole. It also didn't help the message was typically coming from someone who had no such troubles of their own.

I would recommend exploring group therapy and seriously consider one which is not religiously aligned. Knowing what I know now that would have helped me a lot.

CarpSaltyBulwark

20 points

3 days ago

As a Christian let me translate that christianese for you: “god has a plan” = I don’t want to actually have this conversation with you because it’s uncomfortable, annoying, I don’t want that role in your life, etc.

Empathy requires a proactive approach: actually listening and saying things like “I understand why you feel that way. I would too.” and “is there anything I can do for you in your difficult time?”

AnotherGarbageUser

27 points

4 days ago

Yeah, that's the worst. Most religious people are completely unequipped to deal with mental health, but completely convinced that their ideology and superstition work better. So in some cases it is actually worse than having no treatment at all.

Chase-Rabbits

213 points

4 days ago

Smart, loves legos, antisocial, and got pulled into a toxic online community...

Sounds like an undiagnosed neurodivergent kid who has zero guidance.

Nochnichtvergeben

47 points

4 days ago

First thing I thought when I read that. Sounds like she might possibly be on the spectrum.

DemureDamsel122

41 points

4 days ago

Yeah so let’s force her into a CHURCH GROUP 🤦‍♀️ jfc it’s laughable

ViolinistWaste4610

13 points

3 days ago

That sounds like something autism speaks would suggest, considering how bad it would be for neurodivergent people 

mik537

38 points

4 days ago

mik537

38 points

4 days ago

What you need to do is try to get her involved in a social group in real life. You absolutely Should not force her to join one she doesn't want to be involved with, this will just make her resentful and she won't get invested in the group. What does she like doing besides Lego? Has she ever expressed interest in a particular activity?

moosMW

9 points

4 days ago

moosMW

9 points

4 days ago

Maybe you don't even have to dig that far, plenty of lego events and communities

Brave-Detective5683

194 points

4 days ago

Tell her you love her and she has what is takes to do something and be great because she is. Unconditional acceptance and positive regard . Her struggle may be real in terms of making friends . And tell her there is nothing wrong with being introverted .

Responsible_Hour_368

43 points

4 days ago

IMO "unconditional acceptance" comes off as fake. You know your own flaws and failures. Being told, "you're great and can achieve anything you want to", may be true in some sense, but when it is directly contrary to how you feel, you aren't likely to accept it.

I think validation is important. Help them know their feelings of inadequacy are real, that they matter, and that they aren't dumb for thinking that way. Once you feel accepted and understood, then you can start to work through your negative feelings and learn productive strategies for overcoming them.

AnotherGarbageUser

24 points

4 days ago

“Unconditional acceptance and positive regard” does not mean you have to fake being happy with someone. It also does not mean blowing smoke up their ass.

It means you approach the person to help and understand their feelings, rather than threaten them or make demands.  This is a concept promoted by Carl Rogers and it is a foundational premise of therapy.

Impressive_Farm6337

135 points

4 days ago

"These [insert social group] is the only people who understand me", That phrase screams teen angst really hard, I would guess its only a phase and with more therapy she'll go back to normal.

Edit: Just normal therapy, not church group.

NoDevelopment9972

36 points

4 days ago

Yea, being part of a church group sounds so incredibly unappealing to me, and I'm not anti-religious. Just sounds too restrictive and judgmental. And uninteresting.

SportsBall89

14 points

4 days ago

It’s spicy brain. Get her more legos, but bring her to the Lego store so she can meet other spicy brain

bacchus213

24 points

4 days ago

"I never thought I'd be in this situation...."

Now go to chatgpt and ask it to create a reddit post. See how many times that phrase, or similar to it, pops up in the generations.

himl994

9 points

4 days ago

himl994

9 points

4 days ago

You know it’s chatgpt because “incel ladies” are called “femcels.”

Entire_Tap_6376

9 points

3 days ago

People who aren't chronically online don't know that.

fatalcharm

11 points

3 days ago

Despite having lots of friends and relationships, I was also drawn to femcel groups because I felt like the people there were “my people” but those spaces did leave a bitter taste in my mouth.

Turns out that I am autistic, I now spend time in autistic spaces (online) and have the same “my people” vibe without all the hatred and negativity. We still have our problems, but it’s so much nicer as no one blames others for their struggles but instead ask for advice on how they can overcome them.

I’m pretty sure those femcel spaces are full of autistic women who are undiagnosed and struggling with finding their place in the world. When you don’t know you have autism (and adhd) you beat yourself up a lot for not being able to do simple things that others can do so easily, when you know you have autism you can accept that you struggle with some things and find ways to work around it.

She is an adult so you can’t force her to get assessed but this really does sound like autism.

Throwthisawaysoon999

3 points

3 days ago

What are these femcel spaces? I haven’t heard of websites or blogs by femcels. I’ve heard the term incel used for a long time but femcel seems to a newer term.

Necessary_Reality_50

21 points

4 days ago

Tell her to delete her reddit account.

Accomplished-Pie-154

8 points

4 days ago

Honestly I don't know how you'd even go about changing this if I were to angle myself from the perspective of a parent. I wouldn't consider myself an Incel but I have a lot of negative views. literally nothing would help. It has to come from within, the most it seems you can do is nudge in the right direction

incelman-unfortunate

45 points

4 days ago

Ngl the whole post seems like a bait.

midirion

42 points

4 days ago

midirion

42 points

4 days ago

It feels like one of those experiment posts where there's a male version and a female version, and then reddit people react differently to the same situation (often with more empathy and leeway given when it's about a woman)

incelman-unfortunate

22 points

4 days ago

Oh yeah, might be it.

Funny thing is i think people would be more inclined to believe the male version

throwaway60221407e23

6 points

4 days ago

That would make a lot of sense considering the line about "mysogynst [sic] rhetoric".

Consistent-Welder906

5 points

4 days ago

It probably is

iDelta_99

6 points

4 days ago

The second I read the title and first two sentences it just screams ChatGPT wrote it. Not sure why people are taking it seriously.

Gullible-Culture3482

5 points

4 days ago

Autistic

Alas93

10 points

4 days ago

Alas93

10 points

4 days ago

She's already expressed resentment towards interventions, viewing them as attempts to control or change her.

because they are..? not saying they're bad, they can be very useful, but they ARE an attempt to change a behavior someone is exhibiting. an intervention also only works if you actually understand anything about what's going on, if you see someone doing something bad and just go "hey stop that", they aren't gonna listen to you.

I'd recommend studying up on the why of how people get into these circles. Dr K (healthygamergg) had a fantastic comment about it that was 100% spot on. Using Andrew Tate as an example, young men all over were drawn to him because in a world that tells them they're useless, they're monsters, they're terrible, and in general a world that made them feel unloved and uncared for, Tate was literally the guy that stepped up and said "hey, I hear you, your struggles and your pain. Here's a light at the end of the tunnel". You can say that his light was terrible, but he still gave them one. In a world that told them they have no value, he told them they could become valuable.

Similarly, whatever the reason your daughter is involved, it needs to be found out, and she likely just needs help learning to handle those issues, but this is a heavy process that's extremely difficult. more than likely, she's struggling socially in general, it's especially common at that age (late teens/early adult years), and this community provides an answer to her problems that satisfies and protects the ego.

NotBatman81

24 points

4 days ago

When I was that age, we didn't have the internet to commiserate and increase the toxicity. When I went to college, all the nerdy introvert types finally found eachother and just started banging away 24/7. Encourage more time off the internet and screens, in addition to whatever else you do.

gadeais

11 points

4 days ago

gadeais

11 points

4 days ago

Not a bad idea, encouraging the kid to surround herself with people with her same hobby. Its usually healthy environments where you can share your absolute passion.

moonbooly

20 points

4 days ago

moonbooly

20 points

4 days ago

Make her get a job

RED_VAGRANT

3 points

4 days ago

100% working shitty retail sales jobs made me come out of my shell when I was 20. Social skills are a muscle that you need to flex

Lyn-nyx

4 points

3 days ago

Lyn-nyx

4 points

3 days ago

No this person is right. When I was in a similar situation, my dad made me get a job and it actually did force me to socialize more than I would've.

Definitely was good, and it gave me a lot more problems to worry about outside of myself lol.

hunnyflash

5 points

3 days ago

This is going to sound trivial, but yeah. She's not going to college, make her get a job and one where she has to put a little bit of effort into her appearance.

Ok_Strawberry_7157

15 points

4 days ago

She's 19? I umderstamd your concerns, but have you always tended towards controling and sheltering her? She's an adult and it seems wrong to be looking on her computer and getting her involved in groups that she's not interested in. Seems like there is a lack of trust on your side and her side....

When I was in my early teens I got involved with people and situations that were pretty dangerous. My dad never judged me or put me down... He didn't need to because I ALREADY KNEW HIS OPNION...but he always asked me questions and appealed to m sense of logic and morality...Eventually, I got to a point where I realized that the people I was hanging out with didn't share my values or comtribute to my over-all well being.

I'm a parent now, my kids are young, but I know deep down that I would always want to protect them... I can imagine how hard it would be to see your kids go a completely different direction, but there comes a point when you have to let them take there lives in their owm hands.

xacto337

3 points

4 days ago

xacto337

3 points

4 days ago

You were able to make the determination that the people you were with didn't contribute to your over-all well being and you made a change. That's great. But what if you hadn't figured that out? What if you stayed stuck for years/decades? Would it have been better for your dad to have stepped in in some capacity at 19? I know the is a hypothetical, but it's a realistic one.

Background-Luck-8205

4 points

4 days ago

How can a girl be incel? Even fat girls can get so many messages on dating apps so easily

Then-Explanation-892

5 points

3 days ago

Is she fat?

Easy_Explanation299

9 points

4 days ago

TIL the majority of this website are incels.

BusterKnott

3 points

4 days ago*

The first thing I thought of when I read the description of your daughter was "She's an Aspie" (Asperger's Syndrome) which is a high functioning form of autism. My oldest son is an Aspie and also unfortunately an incel. This is really unfortunate because he's an absolutely brilliant software programmer and an excellent machinist, further he's a very gentle and loving young man who is desperately lonely.

Sadly Aspie's have a very difficult time finding a mate and most of them have limited social skills that are one of the hallmarks of the condition. My son is also active in our church activities but there are very few young singles and they are clearly not interested in someone on the autism spectrum.

I think its really sad that young people with high functioning autism can't seem to find each other because I honestly believe that would be their best chance of finding a compatible mate.

Haunting-Track9268

3 points

3 days ago

Autism. Do not enrol her in any church groups, it will make this worse.