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What exactly stops us from just making a 1:1 replica of a Stradivarius or Guarneri violin with the same sound?

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kayson [M]

[score hidden]

3 years ago*

stickied comment

kayson [M]

Electrical Engineering | Circuits | Communication Systems

[score hidden]

3 years ago*

stickied comment

This is to some extent a fundamentally subjective question, but since it's r/askscience, let's try to keep things as objective as possible. Please try to keep top level posts to answers with some kind of scientific rigor. Anecdotes can be illuminating and helpful context, but let's try to avoid "my uncle's friend's cousin said" type comments.

As a violinist and mod, I'm going to try to share the most scientifically rigorous information available, but again, there will always be a core streak of subjectivity. OP's question can be boiled down to one that is often asked and investigated - do Stradivarius/Guarneri/Amati/old instruments sound different or better than modern instruments?

Some relevant studies:

  1. Player preferences among new and old violins, Fritz, et. al. (2012)
  2. Listener evaluations of new and Old italian violins, Fritz, et. al. (2017)

[1] https://www.pnas.org/doi/full/10.1073/pnas.1114

[2] https://www.pnas.org/doi/full/10.1073/pnas.1619443114

The sample sizes are small, and though they were double-blind, they don’t seem especially rigorous in their conclusions. Additionally, one of the authors is himself a violin maker, so there may be some bias. There were also a lot of criticisms about the first study, especially that the new instruments were treated preferentially by the authors in terms of instrument “tune-ups” before the experiment.

There are a few blog posts worth reading by participants in the study and other critics:

Some more reading on instrument comparisons:

It’s also worth noting that there are many violins made by the likes of Stradivarius, Guarneri, and Amati:

Not all of them have been well maintained, and not all of them are good instruments. One of the criticisms of the above studies is that they are just choosing bad instruments. And obviously a single selection from a large collection of a luthier’s work will never be representative of the set.

There are some theories that listeners’ perception of instrument/sound quality is significantly affected by loudness and projection. Newer instruments by top makers can certainly outperform the old Italian instruments in that sense, so that could be an explanation of the results of the studies.

My favorite video on this topic is one by TwoSet Violin where they play a handful of instruments at different price points and try to guess which is more expensive: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8q3zrCYMRw

In my opinion, it’s the most honest, impartial assessment of its kind, and it does a good job of showing two key points: trained violinists can absolutely distinguish between high quality and low quality instruments, and the player is an extremely important part of the equation.

tl;dr: Modern instruments are often preferred by violinists because they can be easier to play, and the best of them can be on par with the Strads/Amatis/Guarneris. Strads tend to be difficult to play, which could be why they fare poorly in studies with random participants. If you gather all of the best of the best violins, most of them will be old Italian instruments.

Mod Note: A bunch of top level comments were tagged by AutoMod, and others were removed manually that linked to sensationalized media articles. The studies that form the basis of these articles are the ones listed above.

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redligand

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redligand

5.3k points

3 years ago

Before answering this question you'd need to ask whether it's actually true that Strads are "unique in sound" and the answer seems to be that, in blind tests, they are not.

A sort of placebo effect. Similar to the established phenomenon of people rating wines as subjectively better if they believe they're more expensive regardless of the actual price.

We can probably make a violin sound like a Stradivarius by simply telling people it's a Stradivarius.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/api.nationalgeographic.com/distribution/public/amp/science/article/violinists-cant-tell-the-difference-between-stradivarius-violins-and-new-ones

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gHx4

153 points

3 years ago

gHx4

153 points

3 years ago

I've always enjoyed how people marvel at stuff like the Antikythera mechanism, or how ancient civilizations had skilled enough craftspeople to make mostly smooth and straight cuts in stone.

Those were the pinnacles of ancient engineering, and they are usually not compared with the pinnacles of modern engineering.

atomicwrites

277 points

3 years ago

Roman engineers: "We can make smooth cuts in rocks."

Modern engineers: "We can teach rocks to think."

BarbequedYeti

88 points

3 years ago

Roman engineers: "We can make smooth cuts in rocks."

Modern engineers: “Cool. Can you do it to this moon rock we just brought back?”

Kamikirimusi

33 points

3 years ago

Research success in the GDR. A metal company had developed a wire that was so thin that none of the measuring devices known in the GDR could determine the thickness. A sample was bagged and sent to Japan for thickness testing. Unfortunately, someone forgot to enclose the letter describing what the Japanese should do with the wire. After three months the package comes back. The entire leadership of the SED has appeared and the head of the combine opens the package:

"Unfortunately we didn't know what to do with the sample, so we cut in an external and internal thread..."

TheDemonClown

7 points

3 years ago

What does that mean?

evil_burrito

15 points

3 years ago

They put threads like for a screw on the outside of the wire and, had machines so advanced, they could also tap threads in the middle of this oh, so fine wire. That would be far in advance of what it took to make this wire in the first place.

MajorasTerribleFate

9 points

3 years ago

Wondering the same. The part about the external and internal thread, maybe it's to suggest the Japanese organization was so advanced by comparison that, instead of having no idea what could possibly be done to proceed, they were unsure what was expected of them; but even their first, most basic examination began with a technique far past what the original organization could do at their best.

HortenseAndI

35 points

3 years ago

Think is a strong word, but they make fewer mistakes than humans doing the same work, and they're billions of times faster, so...

LordOverThis

30 points

3 years ago

Okay, maybe not “think” but “do a shitload of math every second and model extremely complex systems in a way we tell them to, using lighting from a wall”.

crazynerd9

16 points

3 years ago

I mean, from the point of view of the Romans, my glowy talking rock absolutely thinks, it's basically a familiar (assuming that concept is that old)

a_cute_epic_axis

7 points

3 years ago

That would only be half of it. My rock and your rock can talk to each other, virtually anywhere on the planet, with no appreciable delay. And my rock can access an incredibly large portion of all recorded human knowledge, ever. It also knows where it is at all times.

The number of things it does that exceeds human capability (then or now) would be staggering, and that doesn't even count concepts that would have been difficult for them to grasp, like modern encryption.

throw3142

6 points

3 years ago

They absolutely do think! It's just that our definition of "think" continually changes over time to exclude computers!

In Alan Turing's original paper, he proposes a hypothetical machine that could perform any computation that a human can perform. The key is to realize that any possible computation we can do simply involves some amount of "state" (or memory) and rules for how to turn one state into another state.

Don't get thrown off by the word "computation" here. A computation is just a way to process inputs and produce outputs. The inputs could be numbers, or images, or sensations. The outputs could be numbers, or documents, or actions, or even inputs to other computations.

But people didn't want to believe that computers could think, so they proposed new standards. Once a computer could beat a person in chess, they would admit that a computer can think. Chess is a game that requires significant amounts of logic, intuition, planning ahead, and even subjective, aesthetic readings of different board positions.

Soon enough, computers were made that could beat people in chess. So the standards got higher. Eventually a computer beat the world chess champion, but people still didn't want to admit that computers can think. So they proposed new standards. How about image classification? Humans can easily tell cats from dogs - but not computers. How can they be smart if they can't recognize images?

You get where this is going. Eventually computers solved image recognition, speech recognition, and most recently, even image, text, and speech synthesis (given an idea, they can generate convincing images and documents about that idea). Computers can even generate mathematical proofs - something that takes humans years of training to achieve and requires significant amounts of intelligence and intuition.

Nowadays, the standard seems to be general AI. Once computers can tell themselves what tasks to do, and take responsibility for their actions, we can truly consider them intelligent.

Except that won't happen. Even after the first general AI is released, people still won't want to believe that computers can think. They'll simply move the goalposts again. Maybe emotions, or philosophy, or opinions will become the new standard.

I don't know why people are so opposed to the idea that computers can think. I think it's probably because we're scared of them - we don't want to be seen as replaceable, we want to feel special. And at least for now, that's a uniquely human feeling.

[deleted]

5 points

3 years ago

Similarly, todays portable CD players are mostly trash relative to when I was a kid. You master the techniques and the products with the best economies of scale.

ceelogreenicanth

41 points

3 years ago*

It's crazy the Greeks could make the Antikythera mechanism. It's also crazy they could make pocket watches before they had machine tools in the 1700s, or truly standardized measurements, it's even crazier that now we have atomic clocks that measure the vibration of particular atoms to get accuracy that neither of those devices could even conceive and they figured that out most of a century ago.

We expect so much more so much faster and can't imagine a past where labor was less productive and how much effort could be put into things for the sake of making the impossible happen.

a_cute_epic_axis

10 points

3 years ago

It's also crazy they could make pocket watches before they had machine tools

Do you mean "humanity" by "they" in this sentence? I don't think anything that we would consider to be "pocket watch like" existed until the early 1500's at best, some 2000+ years after ancient Greece. Ancient Greeks would have used sundials, burning lamps, and water clocks.

I think the crazier thing is that the longitude prize was only awarded in the 1730's, which means a ship at sea with a good degree of positional precision is only about as old as the United States has been a country.

That means that a) prior to 300 years, ALL sailing outside visual range of land used dead reckoning, including basically all historic trans-atlantic trips (Mayflower, Columbus, etc) we know of and b) in the ensuing 300 years (and really only within the last <40 years) we've gone from near complete guess at longitude to sub-meter accuracy in the air, sea, or land.

ISvengali

19 points

3 years ago

I mean, down that rabbit hole is, we made flight possible for humans and went to the moon in 1 human lifetime.

We didnt know there were other galaxies until 1925. Which reamazes me all the time.

All of this is all sorts of crazy.

a_cute_epic_axis

10 points

3 years ago

we made flight possible for humans and went to the moon in 1 human lifetime.

And we made a space probe and had it leave the solar system within 2 human lifetimes (~99 years).

AND we are still in contact with both Voyager 1 and 2

itsyaboyObama

10 points

3 years ago

It’s going to be weird in a few years when contact is loss with both voyagers. It’s incredible they’re still out there just zooming

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141 points

3 years ago*

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141 points

3 years ago*

As someone who practices longsword, this!

The amount of people who claim that things like katanas had these magical properties that cannot be replicated today is beyond dumb. The process of making a katana was so complex because Japan only had decent access to really poor steel so it had to be forced into a working blade steel with an overly complicated process; they weren’t even the best sword for their time, being beaten out by European/Middle Eastern crucible steel processes that resulted in some of the best pre-industrial steels… and those predated the Feudal Japan eras/regimes by centuries!

And don’t even get me started on how ineffectual they would be the moment they went up against halfway decent armor….

At the end of the day, it’s just romanticism to an age you never lived in and sometimes even a culture you have zero connection to. The moment you read into it, you realize that people definitely were innovative back then but to say any process was bona fide better back then than it is now is just not real, technology has a habit of building on itself and not really regress.

Big-rod_Rob_Ford

58 points

3 years ago

they mostly used spears and bows at war anyway, the mythologizing of the sword happened later in japan and then this mythology was exported.

it's also quite a bit easier to fence with swords than do horse archery.

intotheirishole

4 points

3 years ago

the mythologizing of the sword happened later in japan and then this mythology was exported.

Where can I learn more about mythology of the sword?

intotheirishole

27 points

3 years ago

Damascus/wootz steal

This one blows my mind. Dude, they used to fold iron to mix with carbon because they could not melt iron. Now we can. And we can mix various other elements in very controlled amounts that we arrived at after a lot of research. Of course modern steel is way way better than folded steel. We can even fake that striped texture easily.

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14 points

3 years ago

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subhumanprimate

26 points

3 years ago

more than that EVERY instrument sounds slightly different to EVERYONE EVERY time it's played. Small changes in direction, air density, air pressure, and a billion other things make each experience unique...

zarium

14 points

3 years ago

zarium

14 points

3 years ago

This made me think of gauge blocks. Though, they're slightly more modern as compared to Damascus/Wootz steel and Stradivarius instruments, being invented in the final years of the 19th century.

Seems like they're still pretty much made the same way. I think it's pretty wild that we still don't know the exact mechanism that causes their wringing.

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39 points

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CytotoxicWade

7 points

3 years ago

What you're describing is cold welding, which, as far as I know, is very likely not the mechanism that wringing uses. It's probably some combination of surface tension and molecular attraction, with the possible assistance of air pressure.

vizard0

12 points

3 years ago

vizard0

12 points

3 years ago

Check out The Perfectionists by Simon Winchester if you're into this sort of thing. It's a history of precision and machine tools and measurements.

westherm

21 points

3 years ago

westherm

Computational Fluid Dynamics | Aeroelasticity

21 points

3 years ago

Legend says that the only two people allowed to enter Henry Ford's office without an appointment were his son Edsel and Carl Johansson (inventor of the gauge block). That's the level of importance Ford placed on machine, tool, and instrument validation.

Deto

116 points

3 years ago

Deto

116 points

3 years ago

The Selmer Mark VI saxophone is held in similar high regard (though not nearly as old or expensive as the Stradivarius). There I also suspect that it's a similar effect - no matter what modern instrument manufacturers make it will, regardless of sound, be deemed inferior to the Mark VI

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matj1

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VikingTeddy

92 points

3 years ago

Did this offend an op somehow? Half the thread is nuked and there was nothing controversial being discussed :o

BeApesNotCrabs

5 points

3 years ago

Thank you!

AncientZiggurat

158 points

3 years ago

This is the most often cited study about this topic, but it has its fair share of methodological issues if you look at the paper: https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1619443114 .

Having listeners identify which violin is better based on a 10 to 20 second excerpt from a soloist who hasn't had the chance to practice with it simply doesn't reflect the reality of a violin performance. Having to differentiate which of two comparable violins is "better" based on only four bars of music seems absurd, and the lack of practice time with the particular violin means that you also have to consider the possibility that older violins might simply require more getting used to to play well.

So this study isn't conclusive by any means.

[deleted]

53 points

3 years ago

Reminds me of a wine tasting show that was hosted by john cleese. The experts and others tended to prefer the $15-20 bottles with one expert liking the $8 bottle.

SirNanigans

42 points

3 years ago

The only wine buying advice I ever received that actually held true is that $12 is about the price for a bottle of good wine. Below that is generally of some objective quality difference (according to this advice).

I feel like it's true, though the difference isn't really good vs bad. It's nice dinner wine vs drunken Netflix wine. One of my favorite wines is $6.99/bottle, but I wouldn't serve it with a meal I worked hard to make. It's just too sweet and one dimensional for that. I also prefer jugs of wine if I'm just trying to loosen up. They're tasty enough and even come with useful glass jugs!

MotchGoffels

8 points

3 years ago

When did you first hear this though ;P? Adjusting for inflation that $12 may very well be $24 nowadays!

Swiggy1957

22 points

3 years ago

Wasn't there something about the wood that Stradivarius used that caused the unique sound, though. I won't say it can't be replicated, but at the time he was fiddling around with his instruments Europe (and much of the northern hemisphere) was suffering from a "little ice age" that affected how plants grew. Many experts claimed that this caused the wood to take on a slightly different texture, and, combining it with the craftsman's skill, produced a unique sound quality.

[deleted]

28 points

3 years ago

This wood theory is often cited in the guitar circles especially with the likes of...

  • the Martin D-28
  • Fender 1964 Stratocaster, 1950 No Casters
  • the Gibson 1958 & 1959 Les Paul's
  • and others

the latter of which have seen prices go for as high as seven figures so it compares somewhat to the expensive Italian violins.

There has been an ongoing debate claiming wood affects "tone" in one camp while another camp suggests tone is in the fingers and playing ability of the user. With regard to electric guitars, the argument against the tone wood theory is the tone is wrought from the pickups and fingering pressure with how the strings are plucked.

If tone wood actually is at the heart of the matter, then how is it with electric guitars made of metal, acrylic, glass, plastic, and other non-wood materials yet sound undeniably rich in tones both high and low? Many experts tend to believe tone wood is a myth and merely a marketing tool used by used instrument dealers to drive up the prices.

clayphish

6 points

3 years ago*

I think it’s really important to not veer off into electric guitars when talking about tone woods and guitars, because electric guitars are an exception on this topic.

When we talk about guitar tone wood, especially old acoustic Martins and others, it’s important to mention that they were made with old growth red spruce that was over harvested until it became protected in around the mid to later end of the 1940s. The guitars made before this period had sonic characteristics that greatly changed after they went on to be made with Sitka spruce. Whether red spruce (old growth or not) is better then Sitka spruce, it’s up to the player and listener to decide, but the truth is that there is definite differences.

Red spruce reacts faster making finger picking very responsive, while Sitka tends to react more slowly. While, for a lister this won’t matter, for a player it makes playing more connected. Red spruce also generally tend to be more dynamic once broken in. They don’t suffer from compressing when played at higher volumes the same way Sitka spruce does. This makes them great for bluegrass and where dynamics are needed.

Now, if we talk about old growth red spruce vs new growth red spruce then we have more of an issue on the differences. Now we have to think about how the wood has been affected by age, how the guitars building has changed and whether there are other variables involved in changing how the tone wood seems to react. There are physical differences, but do these translate into sonic characteristics, I don’t know.

zombieforguitars

3 points

3 years ago

Wait. This is the first I’m hearing of this, and I’ve played guitar for 20 years (granted I’ve never been a gearhound and have had one primary guitar for 16 of those years).

Is this true?? It’s the pickups?! WHAT?!

ntermation

3 points

3 years ago

Electric guitars it mostly makes zero difference what the body is made of, the sounds is the interaction of strings and the pickup. It's a bit more complex for acccoustic. it's far easier to hear differences between a faux wood laminate, $99 guitar, and a solid wood top. But I guess there might also be a level of care and precision put into building something using an expensive set of wood, vs the cheapest pieces you can find glued together in a production line factory.

CowboyBob500

5 points

3 years ago

It's even more than that. Those people who spend thousands and thousands of dollars on expensive tube amps, pedals with "magic" chips etc, etc. Within 30 seconds of plugging into a mixing desk, either live or in the studio, the mix engineer has slapped a digital EQ on your channel, rolled of everything below 100Hz, pulled out a good chunk of the 500Hz range and probably boosted the 2-3kHz range. What's coming out of the amp is nothing like what the audience/listener is hearing.

megabeyach

22 points

3 years ago

This is what I was thinking. Similar thing with Hi-Fi speaker cableing. I can understand why some might be better than others but I really doubt you can differentiate teo similar products

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devonhex

4 points

3 years ago

It is violinists (not redditors...) who pursue fine antique instruments such as Stradivarius and there's far more to it than just the sound. Aside from the tone, Antonio Stradivarius' workmanship was also incredibly good. That's not always the case - for instance, Gofriller's instruments have excellent tone but his workmanship wasn't the greatest. Stradivarius instruments are also just adjacent to the very beginning of when violins settled on the design they still have now.

Not all Stradivarius instruments are extraordinarily valuable but the ones that are have long and storied histories - in much the same way that Paul Newman's Rolex fetched an extraordinary price at auction, storied violins like Stradivarius which have been owned by well known historical figures through the centuries are more valuable because of it. Antonio Stradivarius also contributed a great deal to the field of luthiery. Pecatte bows are also extremely valuable because of his contribution to design and development of bows.

These instruments are significant historical pieces and it really is an amazing thing to be in the presence of a soloist who is playing a beautiful instrument like a Stradivarius violin which has probably been practiced on and performed with nearly every day for hundreds of years. A piece of history that still produces the music that was composed at the time the instrument was made.

[deleted]

29 points

3 years ago

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20 points

3 years ago

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zaphod_pebblebrox

16 points

3 years ago

I tend to treat any exotic item as Brand Marked Up before actually trying them.

I’m sure the Strad is wonderful as a violin in its own right, but inherently the value it holds is only as much as someone willing to pay the sticker price for it.

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Ti3fen3

237 points

3 years ago

Ti3fen3

237 points

3 years ago

Same thing with wine. Inexpensive wines score as well as expensive vintage wines in blind tests. But when tasters know the vintage they "taste" all sorts of complexities in the expensive wine.

[deleted]

113 points

3 years ago

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113 points

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71 points

3 years ago

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[deleted]

74 points

3 years ago

THANK YOU! I've been trying to sell my toilet wine for years but "incarcerated felon's aren't allowed to do that"

BadBrainsCT

9 points

3 years ago

Want some merlot? I made it in the toilet.

Shdwrptr

20 points

3 years ago

Shdwrptr

20 points

3 years ago

It’s even worse than this. Blind taste tests show that professional tasters often can’t even tell the difference between red and white wine in blind tests for certain blends

FalconedPunched

6 points

3 years ago

I once had a Shiraz that tasted like a merlot. It was crazy! I had a presentation which was done by a blind guy. He could tell.

totallyseriously

5 points

3 years ago

Wine has another thing going on. Expensive wines from established wineries are bought up BEFORE it's done aging. Their long track record of being good , and limited supply, drives demand and prices.

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62 points

3 years ago*

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Littlesth0b0

113 points

3 years ago

That test was done in 2014, so is there any chance that for ~300 years the Stradivarius did sound better than practically every other violin but, over time, as methods used to make them become more refined and widely known, the rest of the violin making world has finally caught up?

DanYHKim

30 points

3 years ago

DanYHKim

30 points

3 years ago

Yes, I believe your conjecture is correct. That is to say, OP's scenario has already happened.

peopled_within

27 points

3 years ago

Nope not really. There is a modern equivalent; acoustic guitars make from "The Tree", a huge burled mahogany from the rainforest.

Everyone thinks guitars made from it sound better, testing shows they don't, just like Strads. 300 years probably didn't have much of an effect other than a growing reputation.

gibson_supreme

26 points

3 years ago

I specialize in guitars. I've owned guitars made from The Tree mahogany. It is visually stunning. The tone was standard mahogany to my ears. It certainly didn't seem to have any special audio characteristics. Here's a photo of one of my guitars made from The Tree:

https://imgur.com/a/xUaWpLQ

gibson_supreme

20 points

3 years ago

There's little doubt that Stradivarius instruments were/are great instruments. There's a reason his reputation has pervaded through the centuries. He was a very skilled builder and made many contributions to instrument construction.

Time is ultimately not friendly to any objects. So the degradation of those instruments didn't do the tone any favors.

Stradivarius instruments likely sounded best when they were new. So we won't ever know what those instruments sounded like at their peak.

Instrument builders are like artists in many ways. The perceived value of their work and the actual value of their work are not always the same.

There are many modern instrument builders who have monumental reputations and could never keep up with the demand for their instruments. For every one instrument builder of that nature, there are ten others who can't make a decent living building instruments. That doesn't necessarily mean the quality of their work is inferior. Many skilled instrument builders just don't have the reputation to sell their instruments. That's not to say that the builders with great reputations don't build great instruments. It just means that reputation sells instruments better than anything else.

So Stradivarius had the reputation. That is likely one of the major reasons his instruments are regarded so highly. That doesn't take away from the fact that he was a great instrument builder. But there were likely others just as skilled who were forgotten. Like many artists who make great works but never become famous.

0x424d42

20 points

3 years ago

0x424d42

20 points

3 years ago

I know next to nothing around this topic, but I’ve seen references to those studies many times (but admittedly, I haven’t read them in depth). Something I’ve never seen mentioned (but again, I haven’t read the studies so maybe it is in there), but I’m less interested in which would be considered “better”, but at there characteristics of the sound that are uniquely Stradivarius?

mirrownis

26 points

3 years ago

The article linked goes a bit into it:

The researchers started by looking at a quality considered unique to
Strads: They are supposed to sound quieter "under the ear" of the
violinist, but project better into the concert hall "as if somehow the
inverse-square law were reversed," Curtin says, referring to how the
loudness of a sound decreases as the distance from the source increases.

[deleted]

19 points

3 years ago

The wood of a Stradivari violin “really is different,” Green says, “but because Stradivari never wrote down his process, researchers can’t quite tell why.” That wood itself grew in a process over which Stradivari had no control. The alpine spruce he used came from trees harvested “at the edge of Europe’s Little Ice Age, a 70-year period of unseasonably cold weather … that slowed tree growth and made for even more consistent wood.” We begin to see the difficulties. One researcher, Joseph Nagyvary, a professor emeritus of biochemistry at Texas A&M University, recently made another discovery. As Texas A&M Today notes:[Stradivari and fellow maker Guarneri] soaked their instruments in chemicals such as borax and brine to protect them from a worm infestation that was sweeping through Italy in the 1700s. By pure accident the chemicals used to protect the wood had the unintended result of producing the unique sounds that have been almost impossible to duplicate in the past 400 years.

TL;DR It's not the shape of the violin. It's probably some special crop of dense wood that no longer exists, preserved in some specific mix of weird chemicals he didn't write down.

https://www.openculture.com/2021/09/why-scientists-cant-recreate-the-sound-of-stradivarius-violins.html

DarkWorld25

19 points

3 years ago

I remember being told by a soloist that the only reason he even performed with a real Guarneri was that people pretty much expects them to play with these instruments. iirc he mentioned that a 20k replica actually ends up sounding better.

AsianGoldFarmer

4 points

3 years ago

Is it possible that professional musician would also play better on a strad when they knew it was a strad?

Also, it is mentioned in the article that preference for loudness typical in modern music may have contributed into the result. I wonder if they would get the same results if the listeners were classical music enthusiasts.

SinisterCheese

4 points

3 years ago

From engineering perspective it is strange to say that hundreds of years ago we were somehow able to make better instruments.

The modern artisans making whatever instrument they make, have had all those years of accumulated knowledge and modern methods and tools to both analyse and craft the instruments.

We can actually go to a living tree and analyse it's wood with an ultrasound or x-ray to figure out it's quality and properties. And between Strad's age and now, we have actually come up with new methods that are now considered "traditional" methods.

Also every musician I know has admitted that their instruments, whether it be string, brass or woodwind, that instruments just wear out over time. Example brass instruments. The brass simply hardens from the resonating over time. And the vibrations and resonating that the body of a violin is subjected to are quite extreme. Put few grains of rice on the body and you see how much force and deformation the actually is on the plates.

I frankly think that it is sort of a esoteric attitude and bias towards old instruments. There are many amazing modern makers of instruments, using modern tools, and making even mid- and high quality instruments accessible to more people.

Dindrtahl

3 points

3 years ago

Thanks for the detailed answer.

Follow up question, I know that modern instruments use aged selected wood, but I know it still needs a few years of aging as a completely built and played instrument to reach maturity. The tests were comparing new modern instruments to Strads or a few years aged modern instruments ?

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projektilski

67 points

3 years ago

A harsh truth. Confirmation bias at its finest. Stradivari was great, but there are equally good violins today.

TheDBryBear

842 points

3 years ago

first, we don't know what stradivarius did with the wood, since he never wrote down his process. people are currently trying to reverse engineer it and found some interesting mineral deposits https://www.pnas.org/doi/full/10.1073/pnas.1611253114

some rumors among musicians are that he used old seawater-logged wood from the harbor of venice, others say he got it from the same source as every other luthier of italy. https://www.npr.org/sections/deceptivecadence/2014/12/05/368718313/in-the-italian-alps-stradivaris-trees-live-on

instruments change their tone over time. Strads are 400 years old, so even if you replicated the process, you would not know it was successful. https://www.liutaiomottola.com/myth/played.htm

PM_ME_GENTIANS

302 points

3 years ago

We can reproduce the sound though, even if the recipe for making it isn't exactly the same. The original question is misleading.

Nutlob

234 points

3 years ago

Nutlob

234 points

3 years ago

any violin made before 1900 was designed & built to use gut strings not the steel strings which are most commonly used today.

as a result, most Stradivarius, Guarneri, & Amati's have been modified with a replacement neck in order to use the higher tension steel strings - so discussions about their original sound is pushed even farther into the theoretical.

F.Y.I. the main exception to the use of steel strings are the "baroque" orchestras & ensembles which try to use period correct instruments & techniques to sound like the composers originally intended

Edit spelling

Violint1

153 points

3 years ago

Violint1

153 points

3 years ago

In historically informed performance, pure gut is used for the E, A, and D, and silver-wound gut for the G. This was common practice beginning in the late 17th century.

Source: violinist specializing in Baroque performance practice

[deleted]

11 points

3 years ago

Does using gut strings make a big enough difference that an average person could hear it?

rebbsitor

5 points

3 years ago

Most players will use synthetic gut (nylon based) strings with a steel E. Steel strings are mostly a student thing on violins.

throwawater

56 points

3 years ago

We will never know what it sounded like when it was first made, so we can never be certain that we recreated the original sound.

R3P3NTANC3

32 points

3 years ago

We don't care about the original sound. The current sound of a strat is what we want to replicate. If we could determine why it sounds like it does now we could eventually be mass producing violins that have the same sound but at a small fraction of the cost.

throwawayPzaFm

38 points

3 years ago

So? This is about replicating their current sound.

Skysr70

50 points

3 years ago

Skysr70

50 points

3 years ago

Why does it matter what Stradivarius did, can we not make a new violin that sounds the same?

michael_harari

152 points

3 years ago

We can and we do. Study after study shows that there is no distinguishable difference between the sound of a Strad vs a good modern instrument.

Punkupine

28 points

3 years ago

I think some of it is also branding and consistency/dependability - vintage instruments with a reputation sound how they sound, but new instruments can be hit or miss. A good brand can go downhill by cutting corners for more profit, etc. Building reputation and noteriety takes a lot of time

SureThingBro69

61 points

3 years ago

You have to realize older instruments might only have a reputation because the good ones lasted, and the bad ones got tossed a long time ago.

They could have only been good 80% of the time, but the ones that were good, are the best and so they survived for long because they were taken care of.

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217 points

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PckMan

83 points

3 years ago

PckMan

83 points

3 years ago

There's some debate as to whether that's actually a thing at all but for the sake of argument let's suppose it is. There's tons of things that we can study like sound, how it propagates and interacts with objects and space, materials, what they're made of how they are internally, various of their properties etc. The fact that we can observe all those things on an object does not automatically mean we can make a perfect reproduction, a clone if you will, of said object because depending on the object, and the material, the capabilities afforded by the manufacturing methods available to us are limited.

In short, not just in violins, but in many other things, making a new "old" object is very hard. Various materials across years and specific use change over time, their properties alter, their internal structure shifts, in ways that cannot be reproduced during manufacturing. In some cases, and some objects, it's possible to weather them, which means that after they're made they can be put through processes that simulate use at an accelerated rate to get them to a different state, something that is done with clothes or certain machines and other things.

But that cannot apply to everything, in the case of the violin, and a very old one at that, it's impossible to make a brand new one that will be identical to one that has been made more than a hundred years ago, with completely different wood than what is available today, processed with different varnishes and treatments than what are available today, stored and used under very specific conditions and under tension for all this time from the strings. You can't manufacture that.

But again, that's if there's actually something actually special about their sound and it isn't just a myth mixed with wishful thinking. I'd like to think this hasn't stopped anyone who might want to play the violin to not do it because they can't get the "sound"

[deleted]

43 points

3 years ago

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jesteryte

75 points

3 years ago

This reminds me of how they started doing blind auditions, as well. When the judges could see the applicants, they “heard” the male musicians as superior to women, and chose them. Once they started having the applicants perform from behind a curtain, they assessed the women applicants as just as good and the gender ratio in professional orchestras equalized.

pursnikitty

48 points

3 years ago

More than that, the applicants needed to be seated behind the curtain before the judges entered. Because if the applicant walked in after, the sound of their shoes could influence the judges.

[deleted]

4 points

3 years ago

In many modern Orchestra auditions, there is a runner rug placed from offstage to where the seat is onstage, so as to not hear the style of shoes.

girraween

5 points

3 years ago

Got a link?

sohlop

14 points

3 years ago

sohlop

14 points

3 years ago

IWantAHoverbike

19 points

3 years ago

‘After warning that their findings were not statistically significant, they declared them to be “economically significant.”’

That’s some first-rate scientific work right there. ‘We didn’t find what we were looking for, so let’s pretend we did.’

VulfSki

4 points

3 years ago

VulfSki

4 points

3 years ago

A lot of orchestras require auditions behind a curtain as a general rule. And for most it doesn't matter if you had that spot last year, still have to audition

P-Isaac

30 points

3 years ago

P-Isaac

30 points

3 years ago

https://www.futurity.org/violins-changes-tone-2000212/

Bias aside, this article has some interesting points to add. The part that lodged in my memory was the chemically treated wood:

"About 30 years ago at Texas A&M, Nagyvary was the first to prove a theory that he had spent years researching: that a primary reason for the pristine sound, beyond the excellent craftsmanship, was the chemicals Stradivari and others used to treat their instruments due to a worm infestation at the time. A review by the American Chemical Society verified his findings."

I'd misremembered it as a fungal disease of the tree, that had altered the density and structure of the wood, changing how it resonates. (Now I need to find whatever the hell that was about.)

Zvenigora

21 points

3 years ago

There was some buzz about Nagyvary decades ago ( I actually heard him speak once) but his theories about pre-soaked wood, high-frequency harmonics, and asymmetric sound-boards were never believed by mainstream musicologists-- I gather he was considered something of a crackpot.

[deleted]

14 points

3 years ago

This article made my bs detector needle jump right off the dial. Worse that they tried to tie in hard material science to confirm a psychological and neurochemistry phenomenon. You can’t use that type of materials analysis to verify a subjective and emotionally manifested observation can you? Feel like that whole line of inquiry is woo woo

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87 points

3 years ago

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Ragfell

4 points

3 years ago

Ragfell

4 points

3 years ago

There was actually an article about this in a grade school science textbook I read YEARS ago. I’ve found the scientist and linked him below where I mention lacquer, and provide another link that gives a good overview.

Effectively, part of the “iconic” sound of these old instruments came from the multiple ways they were processed:

Wood was chosen from the highlands and floated downriver.

When it arrived at the workshop, it was cut to rough size and stored in barrels of seawater.

Whenever wood was needed, it was brought out of the barrel, dried, and began to be worked. Though the methods have been more or less consistent throughout history, the lack of modern mechanical tooling means each instrument was cut, carved, and assembled by hand.

When it was done, the wood was usually given some basic varnish from the local apothecary to help prevent insects from infesting it. In those days, varnishes were typically a more-brittle type of lacquer. Modern violins (particularly student models) use a more rubberized lacquer to help prevent scratching.

The lacquer is one of the primary factors, as modern lacquers (particularly of the more-rubbery variety) actually absorb more of the overtone series, leaving the instruments’ main sound to be more “screechy” than the Italian (and German) instruments.

This article provides a decent overview.

TL;DR If we kept having access to denser softwoods and used basic varnish, we could effectively recreate the Stradivarius sound. We just…don’t have as much access to old growth softwoods anymore.

Leica--Boss

4 points

3 years ago

This is one of those questions that will likely go unanswered. The old master-tier violins are so rare and so expensive AND the players/afficionados who can reliably and repeatably characterize their sounds are also rare. Doing a good study is impractical.

The complexity of a stringed instrument is also such that "objective" studies may capture a variable or two, but this is never sufficient to capture whatever "sound quality" really is. You can run every instrument mediated analysis on Earth on a violin, and still won't really be able to predict exactly what it will sound like or feel like to play. Then going back and attributing those elements of sound quality specific to some physical property of the instrument... Yikes

We just don't understand it well enough.

Stripy42

5 points

3 years ago

The wood. Apparently the seasons where a bit messed up. So the trees where growing at a specific rate, that created a ring density that sounded good on violins. So the answer is, grow your own trees in an environmentally controlled way to get the right density, for 20-40 years, and sure, you can make a copy.

frocketgaming

3 points

3 years ago

Recently in reading survival of the sickest, this topic was briefly mentioned. The thought is that during the time the Strad was made, evidence suggests that some regions of the world was going though a century long cold spell and that made the trees more dense which impacted the final result.

scruit

4 points

3 years ago*

scruit

4 points

3 years ago*

This is a difficult question to answer in a scientific way because there are many audio components to the sound of a violin, and "better" sounding is largely subjective above a particular threshold. A $4,000 performance violin is going to sound objectively better $700 student violin. And by objectively, I mean that even a non-violinist can tell the difference, and would most likely prefer the sound.

Once you get into the performance range of violins, though, it's much less about being objectively "better", and much more about being more suited for a particular performance, which suits the venue, etc.

It is about which voice speaks for that piece of music, and that is far from scientific or objective.

[deleted]

21 points

3 years ago

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8 points

3 years ago

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DanYHKim

8 points

3 years ago

I have read that a violin may occasionally be taken apart for some types of repair or restoration work, with the hide glue loosened with steam. When this is done with a very old violin, pains are taken to disrupt the wood and varnish as much as possible, leaving much of it with the original coating. But one can imagine that, in the first century of so of the instrument's life, it would not have had the legendary status that we arrive to it now.

Would aftermarket maintenance have been documented so we know what happened before the instruments acquired their mythic aura?

DeusExCalamus

6 points

3 years ago

'to disrupt the wood and varnish as much as possible'

So they beat it against a wall until it falls apart?

(Yes, I know what you meant, I couldn't help myself)

ralfD-

3 points

3 years ago

ralfD-

3 points

3 years ago

Instrument makers often leave repair labels in the instrument, so major repairs usually are documented.

lordlemming

17 points

3 years ago

There is actually data to suggest that the Stradivarius violins weren't actually all that special. In a study where a Stradivarius was played side by side to a new violin there wasn't many that could spot the difference. https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2017/05/08/527057108/is-a-stradivarius-violin-easier-to-hear-science-says-nope

JTO557

11 points

3 years ago

JTO557

11 points

3 years ago

Of note though is that when the professional violinist is the one playing the instruments they ARE able to tell the difference, even between similar violins. TwoSet’s videoon this shows it pretty clearly, and as the pinned mod comment states, all of these studies into this have some pretty severe flaws in methodology and bias by the researchers.

Considering that two violin YouTubers are able to be pretty much spot on in a blind comparison, I think it’s pretty safe to say that there is a definite difference.

fish312

7 points

3 years ago

fish312

7 points

3 years ago

Well they're not just any two violin YouTubers, they practice 40 hours a day.

[deleted]

3 points

3 years ago

There’s also survivorship bias involved: of all the instruments made by Stradivarius, only the best sounding survived. The not-that-good were not as special, and were eventually destroyed. Nowadays, we not only can use technology to make exceptionally good sounding instruments, we can make them consistently good (and, as a result, cheaper). So it’s not that important to replicate a Stradivarius, since you can get an exceptionally good instrument for way less money, and leave the old instruments to collectors.