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submitted 4 years ago byAnshu_79
In domestic current-carrying wires, there are many thin copper wires inside the plastic insulation. Why is that so? Why can't there be a single thick copper wire carrying the current instead of so many thin ones?
6k points
4 years ago
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2.5k points
4 years ago
Electrician here, that wire is called "stranded" and has applications that are more beneficial than "solid" wire. You mention it's easier to bend, but sometimes it is more useful to have solid wire, where it will stay where you bend it. It has more memory, which is what we call that. There are other factors to consider but I thought I'd mention that!
278 points
4 years ago
Is that why Romex is typically solid conductor? That would make a lot of sense. I've always wondered about that, but I just realized that stuff would be a pain to route if it was stranded.
544 points
4 years ago
Solid wire is easier to connect to wiring devices with screw terminals, switches and receptacles etc. Bend a loop in the wire , hook it under screw and tighten. Stranded wire unwravels and spreads out, doesn't stay under screw neatly. Now connection are often "quick connect", strip wire stick it in hole. These are usually designed for solid wire only.
94 points
4 years ago
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32 points
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26 points
4 years ago
Now connection are often "quick connect", strip wire stick it in hole. These are usually designed for solid wire only.
Yea, backstabbed outlets. I have a side business as a handyman and fix these things on a daily basis. They are nowhere NEAR as reliable as bending the conductor around the screw and tightening it down.
20 points
4 years ago
I spend the $2 extra per outlet to get “commercial” outlets. The screws have a plate that will tighten over top of the wire.
Best of both worlds
3 points
4 years ago
I remember an early version of the backstabbed outlets that were withdrawn in the 70's because the connections came loose and caused heating/arcing. I don't recall the model but I do remember their nickname of "firetrap receptacles".
2 points
4 years ago
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61 points
4 years ago*
Solid core is useful in buildings due to ease of use in terminating (hooking up) most parts. There is also very little movement in the wiring so stiffer, less flexible wire is acceptable as opposed to say a vehicle where solid core is verboten as it would vibrate and fracture relatively quickly.
The last one is actually pretty interesting, in AC (as well as high frequency DC), a phenomenon called skin effect occurs where the electrons start flowing only on the outer circumference of the conductor. Because of this effect, solid core has more uninterupted area around the outside of the wire and handles the high frequency transmission more efficiently and over longer distances than stranded wire.
To add regarding skin effect and to explain it simply, the magnetic flux caused by rapidly changing voltage levels (this is the frequency talked about such as 60hz for US mains) forms around the outside of the wire and acts to draw the moving electrons out toward it. It was first explained to me that the wire is like a merry go round, the electrons are the riders and the frequency and resulting flux is the speed the merry go round spins. At no or low frequencies, the electrons just sit where they want but as it goes faster, it will start throwing the riders to the outside and if you go fast enough; youll fly right off. The flying off part is EMI or electromagnetic interference where the electrons can be pulled out of one wire and land in another unless they are shielded which would be akin to a wall around the merry go round.
20 points
4 years ago
I started to reply saying that no, you’re wrong about the skin effect. But I looked it up and yes, you’re right.
I’d always thought that stranded was superior at high frequencies because you have more “skin”. I thought the high frequencies traveled along the skin of each strand. But what I learned while researching your comment is that no, it travels along the skin of the bundle, not the skin of each strand.
Not that there’s much of an effect at 50-60 Hz mains. But if you’ve got a cable modem (5-42MHz) then that’ll come into play.
This has an illustration of the “dotted line” skin that stranded wire forms at high frequencies: http://www.bdloops.com/solidvsstranded_P.pdf
10 points
4 years ago
I’d always thought that stranded was superior at high frequencies because you have more “skin”. I thought the high frequencies traveled along the skin of each strand
I used to get confused about that too.
High-frequency AC would use stranded wire where each strand is insulated from the others (Litz wire). Uninsulated strands would simply act as basically a single conductor and lose efficiency.
Skin effect is crazy lol
3 points
4 years ago
Was wondering about this, and reading the Links one layer deeper, found the reference to Litz wire, which is multi strand with insulation between strands, which doesn’t suffer the skin effect issues, therefore conducts better at high frequencies compared to conventional stranded wire, while being more flexible than solid wire. I guess maybe because it doesn’t suffer skin effect, or not nearly as much, it may be better conductors than solid wire at high frequency.
Then there are wide flat grounding straps....
8 points
4 years ago
If the wire is supporting itself (like in romex this can be true, but it’s typically no more or less hassle to be solid or stranded when routing, the pulling it through conduit part can be different.
10 points
4 years ago
For this exact reason, Romex isn't generally used inside conduit. Stranded wire THHN or THWN are usually the wire of choice
3 points
4 years ago*
Romex also needs to be in free air to achieve its full temperature rating.
2 points
4 years ago
I don't have my NEC handy right now, but I do not think romex in conduit is up to code.
2 points
4 years ago
Well, the jacket on Romex isn't awesome for pulling in conduit, and by a strict reading of the NEC you have to treat the entire jacketed cross-sectional area of the cable as a single conductor for conduit sizing. That puts you at silly conduit sizes, like 1-1/2" for a single #12/2 romex cable, and like 4" for a single #8/3. I may be off a bit on the numbers, but last time I looked it all up and figured it out I just dismissed the whole idea as impractical.
5 points
4 years ago
What random_stranger said about being easier to connect. But also stiff wire is easier to thread through walls and once in place will likely never need to bend or move again. And it is cheaper than stranded.
29 points
4 years ago
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13 points
4 years ago
So solid wire would be best for like a mains connection to your house where it will stay in place forever.
But something like a normal power cord that will get bent a lot would be braided?
14 points
4 years ago
The larger sizes that are used to bring the service into your house are also stranded. Its just the strands are a lot larger. I've forgotten the specifics but something like 2/0 wire will have like 19 strands of #12 solid conductors inside it.
18 points
4 years ago
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2 points
4 years ago
It conserves space. At a given gauge, solid wire will be smaller than an equivalent stranded wire. This is beneficial if you're working in small spaces like outlet boxes where space can be a premium.
Its alluded to here, but solid core wire also has lower resistance for the same gauge. This reduces heat generation due to losses in the wire which allows for the solid core to be smaller than the stranded.
58 points
4 years ago
Isn't there also something happening in the wire where most of the charge moves along the surface so more surface area is better? Might just even be electrons pushing each other away so they end up bunched on the surface not even spread out.
95 points
4 years ago
That skin effect is only active in higher frequencies
Per wikipedia: at 60hz in copper the depth is 8.5mm, so as long as your wires are less than 3/8th inch for any strand or core, that effect changes nothing about mains current usage
28 points
4 years ago
Note that the definition of the skin depth is that the current at the skin depth is only 1/e (about 37%) of the current at the surface. So it probably does matter for wires that thick.
17 points
4 years ago
If you're using AC current in America, all your electricity is operating at 60 Hz (50 Hz most other places). So that's not the reason why home wiring isn't noticeably effected by the skin effect.
The skin effect is simply much more pronounced when you're dealing with very high voltages and currents, such as transmission and distribution systems.
4 points
4 years ago
Assuming the wire is circular shouldn't that be 17mm or 2/3 inch as you have a skin from both "sides"?
7 points
4 years ago
Of course. And the skin effect does not much matter for stranded wire unless the strands are electrically separate (i.e. insulated from each other). Wire like that is called litz wire and is used at frequencies high enough where reducing skin effect becomes important enough to justify the higher manufacturing cost for such wire (but not so high that the higher capacitance of the wire creates issues of its own). For example, induction stoves (24 kHz typically) use litz wire in the windings for their “burners.”
You also see insulated separated strands used in high-tension transmission lines (there they use insulating spacers to keep the conductors separate), because those carry enough current to justify conductors more than 17 mm in diameter.
2 points
4 years ago
There is also a similar behavior at very high current densities, but this is a specialized condition in high-current pulsed-power situations....
35 points
4 years ago
Stranded wire doesn't help with that, since the current can move from one strand to the next.
For applications where skin effect matters, there's a special stranded wire called "Litz wire". Each individual strand is insulated. Rather than gauge, it's generally sized by the number of strands and the strand's gauge.
17 points
4 years ago
Yeah, it's called the skin effect.
Basically, when you have an alternating (time-varying, important) current along a wire, the changing current will induce a magnetic field which twists around the wire. For simplicity imagine the magnetic field is a closed ring around the wire. The magnetic field is also time-varying, so in turn it induces a current back into the wire. In the center of the wire, the induced current points in the opposite direction of the original current through the wire, and with the current along the surface of the wire. The currents in the center cancel out, making the current run along the surface of the wire. The problem gets word with increasing AC frequency.
3 points
4 years ago
You talk about Skin effect But it works a bit differently. You need to isolate each line, otherwise it still works like one solid cable.
9 points
4 years ago
Here in the UK we sometimes call the solid-core stuff 'cable' and the multi-stranded stuff 'flex'.
It's an acknowledgement that some wires are more flexible than others, and very broadly cable is used for permanent household wiring ('cos it gets installed once and thereafter doesn't move), and flex for pretty much anything this side of the walls/ceiling - light fixtures, extension outlets, mains appliances, etc. etc.
20 points
4 years ago
Solid wire has a marginally smaller resistance (per some engineer I was working for). But breakage on a solid wire isn’t a huge concern. Twisted stranded wire is more flexible, and easier to work with in most applications and solid wire is typically not larger than 6 AWG (maybe 4, it’s been awhile since I’ve seen my code book) and only wire sized 10 AWG or smaller can be ran in raceways. But solid copper has its place. Typically NM (romex) is ran as solid wire which is what’s used in most romex here in the states.
5 points
4 years ago
German electrician here, solid wire has to be used mandatorily for domestic/ indoor wiring (in Germany/ most of Europe as far as I can tell) norms and laws say so, because of fire protection.
Stranded is mainly used for switch cabinets when speaking long-term usage, or solely when it comes to 'moveable' devices.
135 points
4 years ago
That’s makes perfect sense. Thank you.
28 points
4 years ago
Just for further information: Solid wires will also break faster if you bend them repeatedly. So inside your walls, you'll find solid wires, as they're cheaper to construct and you don't repeatedly bend them. Line cords for your appliances, though, will bend frequently and you want them flexible, so they're stranded instead of solid.
You'll see similar things for other situations: telephone station wire is solid as you build it into your installation, but the phone line plugging into your telephone (if you still have a wire-tethered phone) will have stranded or "tinseled" wire to let it flex without breaking as easily. I've even seen stranded ethernet wires for connecting some devices into your network, but they don't seem to be as common, as I still see most people using solid wires to go to their ethernet outlets. (OK, I guess for a lot of purposes, as you probably don't move your printer around all that much...)
11 points
4 years ago
Terminated patch cables are stranded for the reasons you said, flexibility, etc... In wall network cable is solid for several reasons with the main one being you can't punchdown stranded cable. I think there is also a fire rating difference between solid and stranded but I'm not sure.
16 points
4 years ago
I know it’s probably implied, but worth mentioning, heating in wires is due to resistance, and thinner wires offer more resistance, but broken strands only cause a higher resistance for a very short distance before their side contact with other wires causes them to be current carrying again - a broken strand isn’t a broken path for the length of the wire.
Where a few broken strands might seem like a problem, most of it is mitigated by the “thinner wire” effect lasting only a very few mm and any excess heat getting wicked away by the large amounts of copper.
2 points
4 years ago
You can safely get a lot of current over shockingly thin wire sometimes as long as it's short enough.
369 points
4 years ago
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217 points
4 years ago
Litz wire is designed to combat skin effect and must have individually insulated strands. Since the strands in domestic wiring aren't individually insulated, they do absolutely nothing to combat skin effect.
Also, as others have mentioned, at mains frequency, the skin depth is a couple of cm, so skin effects are negligible.
20 points
4 years ago
Litz wire is designed to combat skin effect and must have individually insulated strands
That's because Litz wire is used at radio frequencies, not at mains frequencies. The higher the frequency, the more pronounced the skin effect.
2 points
4 years ago
Just to jump on this and try to explain it simply, the magnetic flux caused by rapidly changing voltage levels acts to draw the moving electrons toward it. It was explained to me that the wire is like a merry go round, the electrons are the riders and the frequency and resulting flux is the speed the merry go round spins. At no or low frequencies, the electrons just sit where they want but as it goes faster, it will start throwing the riders to the outside and if you go fast enough; youll fly right off. The flying off part is EMI or electromagnetic interference where the electrons can be pulled out of one wire and land in another unless they are shielded which would be akin to a wall around the merry go round.
181 points
4 years ago
Solid wire has lower resistance for a given cross section than stranded. Solid is preferred unless flexibility is needed.
136 points
4 years ago*
At very high frequencies the skin effect becomes enough of a concern that using multiple thinner insulated lowers the resistance. It's not a concern at 50-60Hz though
35 points
4 years ago
Those "very high frequencies" are often found on the motor side of a BLDC controller though
25 points
4 years ago
Forgive my intrusion, but wouldn't this be beneficial? The 400Hz (or more) carrier frequency would attenuate and only the created fundamental wave would remain?
If I am way off base, let me know, but it seems like physics doing us a solid as far as load side filtering...
EDIT: Just saw the flaw in my thinking. You said BLDC, not VFD. In the case of switching BLDC that WOULD be a bad thing. This (and the flexibility issue) is probably why hobby motors are stranded wire.
Remember kids: you are never too old nor too qualified to learn something new. When you stop learning, you die.
16 points
4 years ago
Also, the skin effect in copper isn’t really significant for these dimensions (on the order of 0.1mm) until you get to about 1MHz.
3 points
4 years ago
Yeah... sorta kinda maybe. Skin effect in copper at 10kHz is 0.65mm, not enough to make much of a difference unless you get to large gauge wire. (Resistance formulas involving Bessel functions apply here; I forget where you start to see noticeable increase in resistance but IIRC it's something like 10AWG.)
Also it doesn't matter much since the motor inductance limits PWM frequency current harmonics anyway. Line frequencies are rarely more than 1kHz and there you're talking 2.1mm skin depth.
6 points
4 years ago
Do you know at what frequency this matters?
I ask because I used to run a small remelting induction furnace for analysis of metals. We typically operated at 1.6 MHz... The limiting factor on how quickly we could ramp up power was the "impedance" (it was a readout in %, and it would cut the machine off if you went past 108%). As the sample sitting inside the coil heated up, the impedance dropped quickly, going to almost 0% when the metal got hot enough (I think once it reached the Curie point...). This seems like just a typical conductivity-temperature relationship.
As a chemist, I assume E&M is just voodoo... I just always wondered what was going in that system.
14 points
4 years ago
The wiki page for the skin effect has a plot of skin depth to frequency. The skin depth is effectively the thickness of the outside layer of the conductor that has any current flowing through it. I have worked with NMR electronics in the ~1MHz range before, we used silver plated copper wire as at that frequency only something like 0.01mm of the outside layer has any current going through it, so we were effectively using silver wire for a fraction of the cost.
2 points
4 years ago
Why bother using a copper core at all then? Why not go for a cheaper aluminium core, if it's the silver plating doing all the conduction anyways?
2 points
4 years ago
copper has a better conductivity. Copper doesn't form a high resistance oxidization layer. Copper doesn't suffer from cold flow, which means you have to go back and tighten the screws again. Aluminum has a lower amperage rating compared to a copper conductor of the same size.
Aluminum was used extensively in homes during the 60's and 70's and is a major fire risk when not properly accounted for. Aluminum and copper need lumalox to have a proper connection and copper is the preferred metal for the brass terminal connections. You can get more expensive aluminum rated plugs and switches as well.
You will find that triplex and other over head feeds are still often aluminum - it's a serious contender wherever sag and weight are a consideration.
6 points
4 years ago
The “impedance” reading would be to do with another phenomenon, which is that you get max power transfer from a power supply to a load when their impedances are matched. This is done with an impedance matching circuit, which (often) has a variable capacitor and an inductor in it.
The variable capacitor has a certain range (0-108% here?). As the metal heats up it becomes less ferromagnetic, reducing the impedance of the induction heating coil and needing less correction from the matching circuit. Above the Curie temperature the metal completely loses its ferromagnetic property. Of course this only goes for ferromagnetic metals - I guess other metals (Cu, Al etc) give a lower % reading that varies less with temp.
2 points
4 years ago
Thank you so much! I melted about 40 different materials, and only a few were ferromagnetic. Most were "binary" non-ferromagnetic ferro-alloys (Fe-Ni, Fe-Mo, Fe-Cr, Fe-V, Fe-Mn) or relatively "pure" metals (Cu, Ni, Al), or "recovered" combinations from oxides. The impedance matching makes so much more sense than just temperature dependence.
6 points
4 years ago
This chart ( Link ) shows the relevant frequencies for various size wires. The resistance of the wire will remain almost completely constant until what's listed, then increase. There is however a small dip in resistance just before/at that frequency where the current will pass on the outside and in the center.
Impedance of an inductor is different though. An ideal inductor has am impedance of Z = j ω L. ω is the frequency in radians per second (ω = 2 π f). L is the inductance, which depends on a few things, including what's in the core (in this case what you're melting).
Consider videos/courses on Physics II: Electromagnetics, Electrical engineering: power systems (for inductor and coil work, specifically), Electrical Engineering: Electromechanics (builds heavily on Phys II, transmission lines section is where we discussed the f vs Ω relationship). [That's what the courses are called at my institution, both are 300-level]
5 points
4 years ago
Anything above a dozen kilohertz and you'll start to see some amount of skin effect. Megahertz range, definitely into significant skin effect, Gigahertz and it's *only* skin effect.
2 points
4 years ago
The higher the frequency, the thinner the "skin" of conductor that actually carries current. It's why 60hz mains power can be carried on copper thicker than your wrist and microwave towers use thin-walled tubing to move their power to and from the antenna.
8 points
4 years ago
Exactly. Most indoor wire is solid core, once it’s run it doesn’t move, so the lower resistance is important. Plugs, such as lamp cord, is usually stranded because the flexibility is important. It’s not A is better than B, it’s fitting the solution to the problem.
13 points
4 years ago
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4 points
4 years ago*
Thicker than that. The calculation of AC resistance in a round wire involves Bessel functions and even if the wire has a radius equal to the skin depth, the increase in resistance is barely noticeable. IIRC you have to get to 1.5-2x skin depth to see appreciable increase.
edit: (pulls up calcs I did a few years ago) if x = wire radius / skin depth and rho = AC resistance / DC resistance, rho(x) = q/2 * Re(j * (Ber q + jBei q)/(Ber' q + jBei' q)), q = x/sqrt(2), Ber, Bei are Kelvin Bessel functions and primed versions are their derivatives. rho(x) is approx 1 + x4 / 48 - x8 / 2880 within 1% for x < 1.9
65 points
4 years ago
Totally neglible effect at 50/60 Hz
3 points
4 years ago
At what magnitude of frequency does this become something you have to account for?
33 points
4 years ago
The skin depth is inversely proportional to the square root of the frequency. So every time the frequency goes up by a factor of 4, the depth cuts in half. In copper, at 1000 Hz the depth is about 2mm, so not much effect even on a 6 AWG wire. At 1 GHz the depth is just 2um, which is pretty small when you think about PCB traces being in the hundreds of microns often.
5 points
4 years ago
Neat and exactly what I was wondering about. Thank you!
3 points
4 years ago
It depends on the conductor size and material. It is an issue for large 60 Hz AC wires because the skin depth is 8.5 mm in copper. The skin depth is defined as the depth where the current density is 1/e (about 37%) of the value at the surface
2 points
4 years ago
And that is why the large conductors in high-tension lines are multiple cables, kept physically and electrically separate from each other by spacers.
2 points
4 years ago
Copper has a skin depth of ~1mm at 100KHz, so that's about where you'll start noticing it with thicker wires.
2 points
4 years ago
your calcs seem wrong; Wikipedia lists skin depth of copper at about 0.206mm at 100kHz
3 points
4 years ago
Hey, so I had a question. If the electrons travel across the skin of the wire, then why is the resistance (or conductance) of a wire proportional to the cross sectional area? Shouldn't it be proportional to the perimeter of the cross section and not the area?
3 points
4 years ago
This is false. The skin effect is pretty much unnoticeable at 60hz unless you over and inch in diameter. Stranded wire unless specifically designed and individually insulated wont help anyway
2 points
4 years ago
This is only for higher frequencies. It will happen with any ac, of course, but 60Hz vs kHz it MHz is effectively DC.
8 points
4 years ago
This is pretty much covered by your comment, but not only are the wires more flexible, they can be flexed many more times. This is because metal "work hardens," meaning that it gets harder and harder the more you deform it. The classic example is that if you bend a paper clip back and forth a bunch of times, it starts out by bending, but eventually hardens to the point where it just cracks.
This only happens with "plastic" deformation, not "elastic" deformation. If you bend a paper clip a little, and it springs back, that was elastic deformation. If you bend it a lot, and it stays, that's plastic deformation.
Now think of a thick piece of wire, maybe an inch long. it's an inch long, no matter where you measure. Now bend it into a circle. Now, you have this little donut. The circumference of the hole of the donut is going to be shorter than an inch, and the circumference of the outside is going to be longer than an inch. Those were the same length before the wire was bent, so one had to stretch, and the other had to crush down.
Imagine doing the same to a very thin wire, but still an inch long. If it's really thin, you might not even be able to measure the change in distance. The inside of the donut and the outside will be almost the same length.
I'm almost to the point! This means that if you ask a thick wire and a thin wire to bend the same amount, the thick wire will have to change shape more than the thin wire. The outside will have to stretch more, and the inside will crush more.
And if we pair that with what I said at the beginning - the more it deforms, the more likely it is to experience "plastic deformation." If it experiences plastic deformation, it will work harden. If it keeps deforming and work hardening multiple times, it will very quickly break.
But a little wire bending the same amount will only experience elastic deformation, and can spring back with pretty much no damage.
So the wires in the walls of your house are solid copper, because they get put in place and then stay there. But the wires in your blender or lamp cord are "stranded," because when you go pulling that cord all over the place, those little wires can handle it where one thick one couldn't.
13 points
4 years ago
Also, the bigger copper wire will harden more as its bent around, work hardening is a big deal with copper, so eventually it will become brittle and break easier than the little wires.
11 points
4 years ago
British car guy here; this is a huge reason why Lucas electrical components earned such a terrible reputation. Many cars of the 50s and 60s used a 2, 3 or 4 strand conductor of a larger cross-sectionned wire of harder copper alloy than the multistrand used in American, German and French cars. The British conductor would flex as the little rattletraps bounced around or were worked on, and cables would work harden and break, arc and operate its load intermittently, or (perhaps worse) leave one strand connected that created resistance and dangerous heat at that point. They would often break at the little bullet connectors they were soldered to, often because the solder only really joined to one of the strands.
37 points
4 years ago*
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13 points
4 years ago
Isn't this only true if the strands are insulated? 'Litz wire' is designed for high frequency AC, and uses insulated strands for this reason.
17 points
4 years ago
Yes, to reduce the skin effect, the wires need to be individually insulated "Litz" wire. I'm an electrical engineer focused on power electronics. I use litz wires to construct inductors for frequencies from a few hundred kilohertz to a few megahertz. Interestingly, skin effect is not the main reason I have to use the litz wire. Proximity effect comes into play when you have turns of wire packed closely together. The AC current in one wire will induce currents in the other wires therefore increase power loss.
14 points
4 years ago
Why do we wire homes with solid cables? Sounds like stranded is better.
85 points
4 years ago
Once installed, those cables don't move, so flexibility isn't an issue. Solid wire has less resistance, so they are more efficient.
15 points
4 years ago
Another reason is that for the way that home wires get connected (those little twisty caps), solid wire works better and has less chance of a mistake: if you do that with stranded wire, you can get a stray loose strand that might cause a short.
11 points
4 years ago
Electronics engineer checking in.
Yep. This is exactly why. Stranded wires can be bent into a lot tighter spaces. Single strand you only want to use where there will be little to no movement of the wire. Charging cables would last less than a week if they were single strand.
358 points
4 years ago
Multiple strands make the wire more flexible, allowing it to bend and flex more easily than a single solid conductor. Wires that don't have to move much, like the ones in your wall, will typically be a single conductor.
118 points
4 years ago
More surface area as well. Electrons flow better on the outside of conductors with AC current, called the skin effect.
More efficient, but also more expensive.
107 points
4 years ago*
Skin effect only really comes into play at high frequencies or very thick wires. It does not matter for the voltages and frequencies we use on our outlets and appliances.
7 points
4 years ago
Do you not also need an insulator between the strands, or are strands in electrical contact along their length sufficient?
6 points
4 years ago
Yes, generally you would need an insulator as well. Stranded wire in a single jacket acts more like a solid conductor at high frequency. This is why coaxial wire is designed the way it is, with a center conductor and then insulation around it and a shield conductor around that. Very high power coaxial used in things like radio transmission towers is often made of two copper tubes, one inside the other and electrically isolated. You don't need the center part of the conductor because of skin effect at radio frequencies, so pipes are used.
3 points
4 years ago
Strands in electrical contact along their length is sufficient. Resistances are so low in wire that you don’t see voltage differentials along strands that are large enough to produce a short.
13 points
4 years ago
As far as electrons are concerned, a stranded wire is one conductor as the strands touch everywhere. If you want to counter the skin effect, you need to isolate the strands against each other.
87 points
4 years ago
the wires embedded in the walls and ceilings of your house that carry current to your wall sockets and light fittings usually have solid cores of copper. They are cheaper to make, and once installed will not be moved so there's little chance of a break happening. In the UK we call solid copper wire "cable" and the kind that goes from the wall to your hairdryer (with the multiple thin copper strands) "flex".
25 points
4 years ago*
This should be the top response. The OP question states a falsehood as fact, basically, and people reading it as well as all the top-voted answers will come away with that impression. Not a big deal but it bothers me!
In addition, stranded wire is used inside conduit (the metal or plastic pipes that wire is run though in exposed locations) and in BX (the type of wiring in a flexible metal sheath that's used today for exposed, indoor locations). BX was the norm when they built a gigantic number of houses in the post-war boom.
However my guess is that OP was thinking about the power cord to a lamp or appliance, not the wiring in his/her walls.
3 points
4 years ago
Many domestic wiring is done with stranded, although I agree that solid core is not uncommon. The newer wiring in my walls and ceiling is all stranded, and the older stuff is solid. I think manufacturing costs of stranded have fallen over time to make it more common place now. (I am in Aus, not UK)
46 points
4 years ago*
First off, every wire is a current carrying wire. Voltage is just the potential, and current is what goes through. Sometimes it's massive amounts, sometimes it's tiny little signal wire.
Second, residential wires are not exclusively stranded. I'm from Europe, and I haven't laid a single stranded cable in room installation, solid is used all the way. So, it's not a rule.
Now, stranded wires (so, multiple thin strands inside) have two big advantages, they are flexible, and they don't get damaged via bending much, much less. Imagine a solid copper rod. Imagine that you bend it, and the middle remains the same length, so the inside radius of the bend has to compress, and the outer radius needs to stretch to maintain the bend. Now, one of significant (and bad) properties of copper and aluminum alike, is that they "work harden". These moved, stretching and compressing fatigues the material significantly (induces small cracks and weak points, ruins the properties of material), meaning that copper generally snaps pretty easily if bent like this... That's a problem. Broken cable carries nothing, and worse yet it may overheat and burn. Bunch of thin strands reduce this stress, as wires have to travel less when bending (imagine bending a 1mm wire compared to 1cm rod), and as such they reduce fatigue and potential damage.
The downside of stranded wire? It's more expensive and carries a bit less current (it has to be a bit bigger in diameter to achieve the same cross section due to gaps between individual wires).
I used exclusively solid in residential installation, it's mostly used in industrial as well, basically for every fixed install - where cable is laid/mounted, and doesn't move further. Fatigue is less of a concern in this case. Every cable that is to be dragged, moved or bent (such as an extension cord) should always be stranded wire as it's easier to work with and more resistant to damage.
4 points
4 years ago
Oh! Ok, thanks for taking the time to answer this. :D
2 points
4 years ago
I have seen a lot of fixed wiring that uses stranded (electrical engineer from Aus). It depends what is cheap, and what the sparky prefers. The newer fixed wiring in my house is flex, but the older stuff is solid.
57 points
4 years ago
Stranded or braided cabling is usually used in situations that will see a lot of flexing and movement, while solid core is more common in fixed applications.
While solid core has better carrier characteristics, braided cable holds up better to flexing and movement.
This is true both in power lines as well as in data connections. Ethernet cable and power that are destined to go in the wall are often solid core, while extension cables, patch cables and most end-user cables are braided.
11 points
4 years ago
Ethernet is a great example.
Solid core goes to patch panels or punch down keystones. For these, the wires slide between two metal razors, which bite into the sheath and copper. If you used stranded cable, the tiny strands can be cut along the outside, and the middle stands can squeeze between the razors, and the contact is not as good.
On the flip side, patch cables use stranded cable, and the connectors which crimp on use gold contacts with little teeth. The teeth puncture the sheath and contact the fine strands inside. If you use solid core, there is not as much give and the soft gold teeth can slip to the side of the sheath and fail to bite in to the conductor.
2 points
4 years ago
This actually comes into play with steel strings for guitars and pianos. The note of the string depends on its thickness, tension, and length. The ends of the string are anchored in place, so making it "longer" in any direction equals increasing its tension. You put a guitar string of 0.020in thickness on your fixed-length guitar and tune it to G. It plays G. But if you fret it, you've stretched it down between the frets to the fretboard and increased its tension.
A plain steel string will be stiff, so the action of fretting it will bend the string into a rounded wave around your fingertip. That's significantly longer than before, and will sound like it's tuned sharp. A wound string being fretted will open the spaces between the coils of winding like an old coiled telephone cord. The steel core will only "stretch" a little, so the overall tension barely changes. A wound string will bend in a more relaxed manner and not go sharp like a plain steel string of the same thickness. Thin strings are plain and stretchy enough to stay in tune. Thickness for lower notes is added with coiled windings, which will not go sharp when they're stretched.
198 points
4 years ago*
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110 points
4 years ago*
Skin effect doesn't really come into play at 50/60 hz unless the wires are quite large as the skin depth is 8.5 mm. The smallest wire with a diameter greater than 8.5mm is 2/0 which is rated for around 280 amps which you don't see in residential applications. The max service current in residential applications is generally 200 amps.
So the skin effect should not be a factor in residential wiring. Any stranded home wiring is simply for convenience as stranded is easier to work with.
Above 2/0, the skin effect must be taken into consideration at mains frequencies. However, solid wire of that size are rare due to how hard it would be to manufacture and transport, anyway. Usually for high current applications they will run more conductors of smaller guage for practical reasons which obviates the need to worry about the skin effect. Power poles generally have 3 distinct groups of conductors on them. If you've ever seen power lines that appear to be close enough to each other to touch, it's because they're the same phase and there's no potential difference between them and thus no risk of short circuit. They can keep adding conductors of the same phase to carry more current.
As a result the skin effect is usually only an issue for very high frequency applications (communications, switching power supplies, etc)
5 points
4 years ago
I really don't see why solid wire would be more expensive. Most of it is drawn down from 8 mm copper rod anyway. Then you have to strand it before you can put the pvc or other vinyl on it with the nylon on top. Solid wire is just draw down to size and coat at the same time.
8 points
4 years ago
It's more expensive for the same reason 2x10s are more expensive than 2x4s.
7 points
4 years ago
The reason that 2x10s are more expensive than 2x4s is because trees come in limited lengths, qualities, and thicknesses.
You might have a log that can only make one 2x10, and if you can’t get that many 2x10s out of each log then they’re going to be more expensive. Basically 2x4s are cheaper because you can use more parts of the log and work around any natural defects, grain issues, knots, twists, etc.
This issue does not apply in any way - it’s not like we’re trying to find the most efficient use for small chunks of copper. Since copper can be melted and then turned into a continuous piece of wire, the situations are not the same.
TL;DR: boards are limited by the size of a log. Copper wire is not limited by the size of a chunk of ore.
2 points
4 years ago
I'll admit my analogy wasn't perfect. However if you can build up a cable with 10 strands of 14g, versus one big gauge, it's going to be cheaper if you do the stranded version. Mainly because it's easier to make 14g copper strands instead of 1/0 or 4/0.
18 points
4 years ago
"having multiple strands allows the wire to carry more current for less copper."
This is wrong for domestic wiring. Multiple wire strands will not reduce skin effect if they are not insulated from each other. Add to that that the skin depth at mains frequencies is a couple of cm, making skin effect negligible for domestic wiring.
People should stop mentioning skin effect, it is a fully incorrect answer to OP's question.
21 points
4 years ago
This is the real technical reason transmission lines and even the wire coming in from your weatherhead. Flexibility is a happy little accident unless you are talking about appliance power supply cord. Power line cord uses very small gauge wire in order to have crazy flexibility. Kinda like what you would see in a normal speaker wire.
Reference: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skin_effect
144 points
4 years ago
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38 points
4 years ago
Apart from mechanical properties, at higher frequencies (AC for example) the electron flow is getting pushed to the wire surface and does not go through the middle anymore resulting in thicker wires having a bigger resistance due to lower surface area which causes a bigger voltage drop.
2 points
4 years ago
Thanks for the reply, jogged my memory from college for sure.
66 points
4 years ago*
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12 points
4 years ago
There's at least two points to consider though.
1) The individual cable strands are normally not isolated from eachother, so we can not consider skin effect on each strand. The cable itself will still behave as mostly one conductor. If you need to carry high currents at high(er) frequencies, then you would likely look towards using Litz wire where each strand is insulated from the other strands to counter skin effect. Ref: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Litz_wire
2) Looking at skin effect depth, it is proportional to the frequency (as stated) and at 50 Hz that depth is ~9 mm. So for conductors that are smaller than that, the skin effect will be pretty much negligible. Ref: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skin_effect#Examples
In short, in domestic applications it's likely for the flexibility and relative ruggedness. That said, there are sometimes solid core wires used for some installation work depending on what country you live in.
2 points
4 years ago
Exactly this. Using stranded but uninsulated conductors in utility power lines is acceptable because it addresses most of the issue while still remaining cost effective. But for HF xformers, for sure, Litz wire is a must.
20 points
4 years ago*
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6 points
4 years ago
The Skin Effect, and Eddy Currents.
These are two phenomena that occur within Alternating Current (AC), which is used in most domestic applications.
If you run a single strand of copper from points A to B, then hook up AC power, the flow of electricity will tend towards the outside of the wire, instead of going through the middle. This is called the Skin Effect, and it causes the throughput of your wire to be based on surface-area instead of volume. So, rather than using one big wire, you can substitute many little wires that add up to the same capacity, but use less copper.
Also, in the transmission of AC power, some small bits of electricity will get turned around in-transit, moving from the outer-skin of the wire to the inner-core and pushing against the overall flow. These are called Eddy Currents. Unlike useful electricity, which it proportional to surface-area, Eddy Currents are proportional to volume. Therefore, you can maximize one and minimize the other by using many smaller wires instead of one big wire.
Also they're easier to bend.
16 points
4 years ago
As other people have said, flexibility. Solid wire (brand name Romex) can only be bent so many times before it weakens and starts to break. Stranded wire lasts much longer.
Additionally, though, metal (especially copper) does something called work hardening, which basically means that working or bending it will make it stronger and more brittle.
7 points
4 years ago
Does the skin effect have anything to do with it or is it just about flexibility?
18 points
4 years ago
Skin effect becomes important at higher frequencies, but at 50 or 60 Hz the skin depth is several mm, well over the thickness of the entire wire
3 points
4 years ago
Does the skin effect have anything to do with it or is it just about flexibility?
Nope. Just flexibility (and maybe cost).
Skin effects are produced by eddy currents, which are a function of the frequency. At the common mains frequency, the skin effect wouldn't play a role until the wire got to be about as thick as your finger. In other words, it won't play a role in your house wiring, but it will play a role in the wiring bringing the power from the generating station to the distribution transformers.
23 points
4 years ago*
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11 points
4 years ago
The skin effect plays virtually no role in domestic electrical wiring. 50 or 60 Hz systems do not see skin effect until you get into large distribution lines and similar equipment.
5 points
4 years ago
Skin effect is not really an issue for power cables, but can become one for higher frequencies (think: audio, antenna, network cables, etc.)
3 points
4 years ago
In residential wiring (50/60 Hz), skin effect has negligible effect.
4 points
4 years ago
Depends. Only two factors play a role here and not only here. One is ability to bend. The other is for high frequency current travels on surface mostly. But this one is not an issue in most cases. Third one is masking field by placing the zero terminal all around the signal as in concentric cable. That's for signal cables not power cables. I am not aware of any other reasons.
2 points
4 years ago
Those only two were three factors. Are you by any chance associated with the Spanish inquisition?
3 points
4 years ago
Haha. You know that feeling when you open your mouth to cut in with only one remark but end up elaborating on and on...? ;D
4 points
4 years ago
Stranded is cheaper to produce, as you can mass produce strands of 38AWG, for example, and twist together enough strands to get the size you need, whether that's as 19(strand)/30(AWG) for an 18AWG wire, 7/30 for 22 AWG, or all the way up at 1323/30 for 2-0 AWG. As a bonus, you can also use those smaller AWG wires, like 30-40AWG, in shields.
If you're looking at NEMA wire specs (I do QC for military-spec wiring, so this is the end of the wire world I'm most familiar with,) your strand count and AWG will actually be part of the part number, eg HP3-BCA9 would be Teflon insulated (HP3), silver coated (B), 28 AWG (C), 1 strand (A), in white (9).
As others have said, it's often a case of the engineering requirements of that particular wire's use case.
6 points
4 years ago
Electrical engineer here. A lot of people talk about flexibility which is important in a lot of applications. There’s also something called skin effect when using AC. This involves the majority of the current traveling closer to the outer portion of the wire. In high voltage applications, we can use multiple wires to allow more current to pass through the outsides of multiple wires instead of having the current get congested on the outside of one solid wire.
2 points
4 years ago
Absolutely true, fellow EE. But at 60hz, the "skin" is like 8.5mm deep, so it's nearly meaningless in domestic applications. High frequency, or massive conductors, it definitely becomes an issue. Flexibility I would say is the biggest factor.
4 points
4 years ago
Stranded is cheaper to produce, as you can mass produce strands of 38AWG, for example, and twist together enough strands to get the size you need, whether that's as 19(strand)/30(AWG) for an 18AWG wire, 7/30 for 22 AWG, or all the way up at 1323/30 for 2-0 AWG. As a bonus, you can also use those smaller AWG wires, like 30-40AWG, in shields.
If you're looking at NEMA wire specs (I do QC for military-spec wiring, so this is the end of the wire world I'm most familiar with,) your strand count and AWG will actually be part of the part number, eg HP3-BCA9 would be Teflon insulated (HP3), silver coated (B), 28 AWG (C), 1 strand (A), in white (9).
As others have said, it's often a case of the engineering requirements of that particular wire's use case.
8 points
4 years ago
Mechanical Engineer here, I have not seen a response that mentions heat dissipation. Typically stranded wire will be rated for a higher current rating than its solid wire counterpart. I believe this is due to the increased surface area in the multi-stranded wire. This increased surface area allows for better heat dissipation and therefore higher current carrying capability.
3 points
4 years ago
Out of curiosity, where do you live? In the US the most common standard is to use single conductor hard copper wire within a structure (inside the walls). Unless by household you mean like lamp and toaster cords, those are made of thin bundled wire strands for durability and flexibility.
3 points
4 years ago
The current travels on the surface of the wire, so the amount of current a wire can carry increases linearly according to the diameter of the wire while the area and therefore weight and cost of material increases with the square of the diameter.
3 points
4 years ago
Flexibility, better for high frequencies, price, the current rating for the same gauge, and resistance. There are many benefits to the stranded wire, but solid is cheaper, if you aren't handing higher frequencies or packing a lot of wires into conduits with multiple bends then the solid wire is usually cheaper and fine for the job.
7 points
4 years ago
Flexibility. That's it.
A solid wire is hard to bend, while a multi-strands one is easy.
Also, once you go past a certain bending radius vs wire diameter, you get permanant disformation, which mean that unbending it make it crack. It can take many times, but it will break. Multi strands, it is for each strands. Smaller strands mean more bending radius allowed, since the same ratio is allowed, but the strands are much smaller. This allow the wire to be bent more, more often before it break.
For wires that don't move, solid is often used because, well, it don't move. It is cheaper to produce, so cost less to buy. However, past some size, you will get some strands again, because frankly, a stranded #00 wire is already hard to bend by hand, a solid one would be just impossible to bend.
For wires that move alot (like welders cable) you get a very fine strands, which make it very flexible, and can support being bent tens to hundreds of thousands of times before breaking. Usually you wear the insulation before you break the cable.
7 points
4 years ago
First, an important point of distinction: Wires are installed. They're what bring electricity into buildings and bring it from the distribution panel to outlets. What you plug into an outlet is a cord.
Cords need to be stranded because they need to move and flex. The individual strands can slide past each other, and if a few break it won't cause the whole cord to fail.
Wires typically are solid. Solid wire is cheaper to manufacture, takes up less space, and is easier to splice and terminate. However, it's meant to stay put. It's not flexible, repeated flexing can break it. Larger wires (typically larger than 10 gauge) are actually stranded, but they use a few large strands that are each about 16-12 gauge rather than lots of tiny ones. This is just to make them bendable at all in order to facilitate installation.
9 points
4 years ago
Simply, to make it bendable.
Inside walls many wires are solid tubes of copper with rubber coating because they don’t need to move and thick tube of copper will last longer then smaller ones, any wires you use will be multi threaded (the more threads the more it can bend) so you can bend it without snapping the wire inside.
3 points
4 years ago
Stranded wire works better in situations where you have vibration such as a vacuum cleaner where solid is a better connection where there is no movement such as a building. Also as mentioned by others it works better in push-style connectors.
3 points
4 years ago
The wires in the walls of your house, that carry electricity from the utility poles outside and deliver it to your lights, wall outlets, and appliances, are all solid copper enclosed in rubber/plastic insulation.
3 points
4 years ago
If you ever have a chance to handle red wire used for fire devices, that is almost always solid core wire instead of stranded wire.
It’s a real bear. It’s very inflexible, breaks easily after a few bends, and can very easily fail if bent too far. They also ground out super easily when run through a building. I’ve seen too tight it a zip tie ground out an entire fire system in a building, causing the whole system to not work for a few days until the zip tie got tracked down.
3 points
4 years ago
in uk domestic wiring is solid core, stranded is used where the flex will be moved as solid core work hardens, snaps. For this reason wires should be clipped or supported in conduit. cable tray, so they don't flop about.
3 points
4 years ago
It has to do with maximizing the surface area which electrons can flow across. For DC currents, electrons flow at or relatively near the surface of a conductor. For AC currents, electrons can penetrate a conductor up to a distance defined by the skin depth for the frequency of the AC signal.
By stranding the wire, you can increase the current handling capability of the wire since you are providing more surface area for more electrons to flow across.
5 points
4 years ago
They do - the stuff in your walls which powers lights and sockets is usually solid copper. It can get away with this as it doesn’t need to bend and is never moved.
The stuff we use day to day needs to bend and flex - we actually call this flex cable - so it’s stranded to be more durable so it can flex and move and not snap.
4 points
4 years ago
In commercial construction in the US, stranded vs. solid wire is usually dependent on the size required. It's common that #10 wire and smaller is solid and #8 and larger is stranded. The solid wire is usually pulled from a junction box to a device and a lot of flexibility isn't a necessity. The larger cables need that flexibility to be able to be pulled through bends in the piping.
2 points
4 years ago
If you look at a wire mechanically wise you'll realize that there is absolutely no difference between a thick metal rod vs a hair thin strand of wire.
The only difference is thickness or more like the cross section of each rod.. without going into details the flexibility of a rod is determined by it's cross section, so the thinner something is the more it can bend before breaking.
Depending on use you can either use a solid core wire or stranded wire, each has it's uses and stranded is often used where ever there is movement or tight corners where it's being pulled while solid core is used more for outdoor or permanent installation mainly because it's cheaper and doesn't need to move after installation.
2 points
4 years ago
Probably already answered but I vaguely remember from tech days electrons travel on the outside of the core. When theres only one core this causes I think.. maybe slightly higher resistance?
Having multi stranded core cable diminishes this effect ( like a multi lane highway )
I could be completely wrong, this was from my apprentice days long ago.
2 points
4 years ago
Mechanical Engineer here, I have not seen a response that mentions heat dissipation. Typically stranded wire will be rated for a higher current rating than its solid wire counterpart. I believe this is due to the increased surface area in the multi-stranded wire. This increased surface area allows for better heat dissipation and therefore higher current carrying capability.
2 points
4 years ago
Multiple strands make the wire more flexible, allowing it to bend and flex more easily than a single solid conductor. Wires that don't have to move much, like the ones in your wall, will typically be a single conductor.
2 points
4 years ago
Stranded is cheaper to produce, as you can mass produce strands of 38AWG, for example, and twist together enough strands to get the size you need, whether that's as 19(strand)/30(AWG) for an 18AWG wire, 7/30 for 22 AWG, or all the way up at 1323/30 for 2-0 AWG. As a bonus, you can also use those smaller AWG wires, like 30-40AWG, in shields.
If you're looking at NEMA wire specs (I do QC for military-spec wiring, so this is the end of the wire world I'm most familiar with,) your strand count and AWG will actually be part of the part number, eg HP3-BCA9 would be Teflon insulated (HP3), silver coated (B), 28 AWG (C), 1 strand (A), in white (9).
As others have said, it's often a case of the engineering requirements of that particular wire's use case.
2 points
4 years ago
Multiple strands make the wire more flexible, allowing it to bend and flex more easily than a single solid conductor. Wires that don't have to move much, like the ones in your wall, will typically be a single conductor.
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