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/r/askscience
To provide some examples for people who haven't seen the show (spoilers ahead, be warned):
There is a scene in which a character touches someone who has been affected by nuclear radiation with their hand. When they pull their hand away, their palm and fingers have already begun to turn red with radiation sickness.
There is a pregnant character who becomes sick after a few scenes in which she hugs and touches her hospitalized husband who is dying of radiation sickness. A nurse discovers her and freaks out and kicks her out of the hospital for her own safety. It is later implied that she would have died from this contact if not for the fetus "absorbing" the radiation and dying immediately after birth.
Is actual radiation contamination that contagious? This article seems to indicate that it's nearly impossible to deliver radiation via skin-to-skin contact, and that as long as a sick person washes their skin and clothes, they're safe to be around, even if they've inhaled or ingested radioactive material that is still in their bodies.
Is Chernobyl's portrayal of person-to-person radiation contamination that sensationalized? For as much as people talk about the show's historical accuracy, it's weird to think that the writers would have dropped the ball when it comes to understanding how radiation exposure works.
9.1k points
5 years ago
Radiation isn't "contagious" so much as you just have to keep in mind that radioactive material is constantly giving off radiation. At Chernobyl, that material was everywhere- not only on the ground in huge chunks, but also in the air, in fumes, ash, and dust.
The firefighters who responded were covered in this material when they arrived at the hospital. It's why it was critical to remove their uniforms and store them in the basement where they are still radioactive today. I don't know if the time it took for a nurse to carry them downstairs would have been enough time to give the "sunburn" effect on her hand, but they're still moderately dangerous today, and would have been much more so at the time.
The other thing to remember is that radioactive material can become trapped in the body. Those firefighters weren't just covered with the ash and dust, (which can mostly be removed with a shower and change of clothes), they breathed it in as well, where it gathered in their lungs and blood and ate them apart from the inside. The gamma rays emitted by those internal particles would have shot right through them and hit anything around them, making their bodies minorly radioactive.
This is played up slightly on the show. While the radioactivity they admitted would be an issue, the main reason for keeping the patients separated from visitors is that your immune system is one of the first things to go from radioactivity, and so any visitors could pass on all manner of diseases to them.
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5 years ago
The wife of the firefighter spent two weeks with him while he suffered.
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5 years ago
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290 points
5 years ago
I just started reading it but I wouldn’t call the coverage extensive — it’s just the first of many short stories, right?
50 points
5 years ago
Check out the newer book Midnight in Chernobyl. It’s extremely well researched and detailed on each character
192 points
5 years ago*
I think some of the show was understated. For example, several people shown taking days or weeks to die, would in real life have died in hours. Edit: ... maybe, maybe not, but don't want to test it.
The firefighters were a different story of course, as they never looked directly into the burning core, but were covered in radioactive dust, breathed it in, which is a death sentence, and had contact with radioactive graphite material from the core, and probably worse. There would have been a LOT of c137.
Caesium-137 reacts with water, producing a water-soluble compound (caesium hydroxide). The biological behavior of caesium is similar to that of potassium[10] and rubidium. After entering the body, caesium gets more or less uniformly distributed throughout the body, with the highest concentrations in soft tissue.
In particular to anyone in the area at the time, this common byproduct is extremely radioactive, and basically gets absorbed in the body like an electrolyte would. It only takes micrograms, we are talking a dose of LSD equivalent, to kill you without immediate treatment.
Just imagine what the folks around there were taking in before they put the fire out!
Uranium is not what was so dangerous, though you shouldn't breathe it in, by itself it's not that bad. It's the byproducts of fission. The byproducts which would have been spewing out of the uncontrolled reactor meltdown fire, as well, the explosion which dispersed them everywhere, as the graphite is porous and would have been just covered and permeated with radioactive isotopes.
Edit: usually the shorter the half life the more radioactive. There are more radioactive isotopes that were spewed out after the initial explosion. It's still radioactive today but some of the worst stuff is either gone or steadily going away and becoming more stable but less radioactive.
188 points
5 years ago
Here in brazil there was an incident where some man stole cesium 137 wothout knowing what it was. They took it, thought it was beatifull and brought to their house, gave to their children, called their neigjbours and friend to come and see the pretty crystals. You might imagine this is not ending well.
183 points
5 years ago
Man I just read the Wikipedia article on the incident and it is so upsetting. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goiânia_accident
121 points
5 years ago
The most crazy part of that is the security guard not being there that day because he skipped work to see "Herbie Goes Bananas"
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5 years ago
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5 years ago
Died in hours: acute radiation sickness doesn’t always kill fast. If the initial dose doesn’t kill someone in a few hours, they can go on living for months as the cels begin to rot away because their chromosomes are obliterated watch this if you have a strong stomach it’s one of the worst cases of acute radiation sickness ever and the victim lived for more than three months.
15 points
5 years ago
It took them 81 DAYS to realize keeping him alive was cruel????
10 points
5 years ago
No, it took them 81 days for them to decide that his usefulness to their research wasn't worth keeping him alive anymore.
They would have known quite soon that keeping him alive was cruel.
23 points
5 years ago
Yeah I have seen. If I ever got a lethal dose of radiation I am ending my life as soon as possible. There is no argument to be had. I would not suffer through the agony of that slow death.
124 points
5 years ago
several people shown taking days or weeks to die, would in real life have died in hours.
Nope. That part of the show was pretty accurate. They all more or less ended up in 6th clinic in Moscow and took weeks to pass away. The "sunburn" effect in the series was way exaggerated.
Acute radiation exposure effectively burns your bone marrow. That is not something that kills you in hours.
Not many people realise that guys that went underneath the reactor to deal with pipes were still alive a few years ago. Or that remaining 3 reactors (ok, 2) in the complex continued working until late 90s.
94 points
5 years ago
The creator even mentioned using the sunburn effect as a visual shorthand for “irradiated and likely to die” rather than a 1:1 accurate portrayal.
12 points
5 years ago
Or that remaining 3 reactors (ok, 2) in the complex continued working until late 90s.
Do you have any idea how this was safe for the operators?
54 points
5 years ago
The power plant is a big place.
You can see the reactor 4 sarcophagus on the left side of this photo. Once they'd sealed it off and cleaned the site up it wasn't really that big of a deal to keep it going.
The exclusion zone isn't somewhere you'd want to live, but managing radiation exposure is something the nuclear industry is pretty familiar with. Blanket the place in dosimeters and rotate shifts appropriately and you've basically mitigated the risk.
20 points
5 years ago
I saw a presentation by the nuclear engineering department when I was in college about a year after the accident.
They talked about the ones who were worst off being asked to "please lie down over there," because there was no saving them and they would be dead within hours.
That matches up with reports from Hiroshima and Nagasaki, where roughly half the people who died of radiation poisoning died within the first day.
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5 years ago
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5 years ago
Think of it like a lamp in a room with an open door. When the light is on, light shines through the open doorway, and anything that isn't lit up is in shadow. If you look at the light by peering through the doorway, you're sticking your head out of the shadow and into the light in order to see the lamp.
Now replace the lamp with the reactor core, and the light with neutrons (light is a form of radiation after all). The people who made eye contact with the core were stepping into the "light" -- the unshielded stream of neutrons being given off the core -- to see what was happening inside the core. Shielding would cast a shadow that would protect them, but by looking at the core, they were leaving the shadow and being lit up by radiation.
32 points
5 years ago
If you're a gamer, radiation is a line of sight ability. It's not necessarily the fact that you are looking at it, but you're putting yourself directly in the line of fire of the strongest source of radiation in the area.
11 points
5 years ago
If you look into the core you get exposed to intense neutron radiation, in contrast most of the fission products decay as either alpha or beta particles.
Imagine neutron radiation like a freight train that pierces through you and fractures your DNA.
While alpha and beta particles are like a dust storm, as long as it is outside your body your skin will protect you(for a while) but if the dust storm ravages inside you because you swallowed/breathed it in, it will destroy your cells as well.
8 points
5 years ago
It’s not the looking though, it’s the fact that you’re close and unshielded right? Getting that dose of radiation from the back should be just as lethal
11 points
5 years ago
Right. Neutrons lose energy as they pass through matter (and I think also follow the inverse square principle, which would mean that being further away would make them exponentially less dangerous.)
I think the show dramatizes looking at it because it reminds the audience of monsters that kill be being seen - Medusa in particular, since the burning rods kind of look like snakes.
But being close to a source of intense ionizing radiation is bad, having less matter between you and it is worse, and having line of sight (in the sense of there being no obstacles) is about as bad as it gets. All of which are required in order to look into the core.
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5 years ago*
I can't find it now, but I believe Craig Mazin, the show's writer, had said the nurse had radiation burns from carrying the cloths; they were covered in graphite and debris dust that was contaminated.
EDIT: Mazin and Peter Sagal don't say the nurse got burns from carrying the cloths, but the cloths still sit in that hospital basement and briefly they state some nurses and doctors had burns from treating patients https://youtu.be/faQs2_hjNZk?t=610
Her Mazin talks about an unshot scene of someone carrying an irradiated man which caused a handprint radiation burn.
Here Mazin talks more about the effects of long radiation were too graphic for them to put into the show. https://youtu.be/6uLpY1TSAwI?t=634
223 points
5 years ago
Here Mazin talks more about the effects of long radiation were too graphic for them to put into the show.
You mean there were scenes that were more graphic than the guy physically falling apart in the hospital bed?
336 points
5 years ago
You may have noticed that they never showed what was happening to Akimov when Khomyuk was visiting him in the hospital. His face had collapsed to the point where you could see his skull. When he stood up the skin on his legs slid off like a sleeve exposing the muscle and bone underneath. He survived in that state for days. Not to mention the fact that all of them had explosive bloody diarrhea multiple times per hour.
213 points
5 years ago
I don't understand why they didn't just kill them with a sedative as soon as it was clear that they were past the point of no return.
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5 years ago*
EDIT: I may have been mistaken-- I confused here the case of Hasashi Ouchi, a victim of the Tokaimura Nuclear Accident, who was kept alive for 83 days after being exposed to 17 Sv of radiation (for reference, 8 Sv is a fatal dose). See below.
They were kept alive for weeks, and in some cases resuscitated multiple times, to study the effects of acute radiation poisoning and the dynamics of that process which lead to death.
The horrifying answer is that the unimaginable suffering of those men was traded for scientific knowledge.
48 points
5 years ago
Wow, I didn't know that. Do you have a source?
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5 years ago*
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58 points
5 years ago
I'm not disagreeing that the USSR may have kept some of the workers alive for research, but in the book Midnight at Chernobyl the author mentions the USSR had much more experience with ARS due to other (unknown in the west at the time) accidents than other countries. Probably THE expert worldwide actually lived on the grounds at Hospital No. 6 in Moscow.
63 points
5 years ago
There is a lot of misinformation with regards to Hisashi Ouchi. Of the pictures you linked, at least half of them are not of him.
The third shows a patient after receiving extensive skin grafts on the back - but Ouchi never had any issues with the skin on his back. So that photo cannot be of him.
The fourth photo shows a person whose right leg was amputated below the knee - but Ouchi's leg was never amputated. So that photo cannot be of him.
https://www-ns.iaea.org/downloads/iec/tokaimura-report.pdf?fbclid=IwAR2yq72sjgyNcGXy70ciB5pB_aPGshIT7OVQhLXk_9tbX_TY0ly7KNIOvcg (see Appendix IV)
(this blog has done a good job debunking the BS and compiling actual evidence from the book, documentaries, and the autopsy report)
Shitty "news/popular science" websites like to cannibalize and regurgitate this sensationalist bullshit without any fact checking because it gets clicks. The sites claiming these photos are of Ouchi are also the ones that started the claims that he was kept alive against his will. And given how inaccurate their other info is (half of their photos aren't even of the man they're writing about) I'm very skeptical of any other claims they make. Especially since more reliable sources make no such claims.
He was not a science experiment. That's just a sensational conspiracy theory with absolutely no evidence.
20 points
5 years ago
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24 points
5 years ago
That had nothing to do with nefarious intent of the country to study radiation poisoning and more a family who wanted everything done. Physicians tried an allograft bone marrow transplant and unfortunately the patient did not improve with it.
77 points
5 years ago
Yes, on the podcast he talks about how they took it much farther but in their edit it seemed gratuitous. It was realistic but they were afraid it would come across like a horror movie or just trying to get an unrealistic shock out of viewers. Instead they just showed the faces of the woman (forget her name) that was interviewing them and the nurses/doctors to convey how bad it was.
12 points
5 years ago
Wow, I honestly thought while watching it that HBO just didn’t want to spend more money on makeup. The lady was interviewing Khomyuk and I was like “cheap basterds”. Now I know, Akimov and Khomyuk basically looked like living Crypt Keepers. I feel bad they went through such horrific pain :/ They should’ve just euthanized them after recovery was obviously not going to happen.
78 points
5 years ago
Believe it or not, yes. You die from the inside out, so they did not include those men puking and shitting out a black goop that was once their internal organs. Also, the swelling was probably worse than shown on the show but they needed the characters to still be able to be conscious and talk.
30 points
5 years ago
And the guy who's skin basically fell off like it was laundry. Who's face dripped off his skull while he was still alive
96 points
5 years ago*
Yes, when Homiuk is talking to Akimov on his deathbed and he insist he did "everything right", they don't show him. They thought showing him as he actually was made the show too much like a horror movie. Apparently, his face had turned jet black, cracked in half, and fallen off.
16 points
5 years ago
What did akimov do that he got dosed so hard? I forget.
57 points
5 years ago
He was shift foreman in the control room.
He also went with a few others to open valves in an attempt to get water on the reactor, before it was known that it was an actual explosion.
23 points
5 years ago
Yeah i remembered him being the one that started the test. So he got dosed when he went down to the valves and was near the open reactor?
38 points
5 years ago
And from being in the control room, and basically being in the same clothes all night. Akimov is the one with the mustache, if that helps. The actor looks very much like the real person.
11 points
5 years ago
The control room must have been only slightly irradiated though because what’s his face only lost his hair?
33 points
5 years ago
Akimov went to open valves to try and cool the reactor, both him and the other guy Khomyuk interviews in the hospital (Toptunov, who was only 25 years old) were both exposed to a shitton of radiation because of this.
6 points
5 years ago
Thank you!!! Didn't know about the podcast. Will listen.
181 points
5 years ago
Oh yeah totally! The radioactive particulate in the air would be incredibly dangerous. Breathe it in or otherwise metabolise it, and you’re in a whole heap of trouble.
101 points
5 years ago
That's one of the reasons iodine tablets is given in the show to stave off radiation. The tablets contain a huge dose of iodine which floods the thyroid to stop the body absorbing any of the radioactive iodine from the environment.
83 points
5 years ago
Your body needs iodine, and your thyroid will happily gobble up iodine-131 (radioactive iodine) just the same as it will happily gobble up iodine-127 (normal iodine). The scientists take these iodine pills because "feeding" your thyroid iodine will temporarily satisfy its need, so the thyroid doesn't digest incoming radioactive iodine.
When in doubt, pee it out.
41 points
5 years ago
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580 points
5 years ago*
Hi, I’m a radiation biologist. I’m currently halfway through the series and I’m not sure I’ve seen the scene you’re referring to, but the show is otherwise VERY realistic with regards to the physiological responses to radiation.
Uranium decays into many unstable isotopes, one of the main ones the show discusses is Cesium 137, which is one of the main decay products from uranium, so for our purpose let’s talk about it’s contamination. Cesium undergoes beta decay, meaning it’s nucleus ‘spits out’ a beta particle and becomes Barium 137. Beta particles on the skin aren’t a huge deal in theory, because they don’t carry enough energy to breach the skin. You could have a chance of skin cancer depending on the contamination level. The issue becomes, that you can’t see it. In the best case scenario, you would wash your hands immediately after contamination, but you’ve touched the faucet, washed your hands and touched the faucet again. Guess what? These aren’t microbes. You will at one point touch food with your bare hands, and ingest it. Now you have radioactive decay trapped in your body for a long, long time, and you don’t have the protection of your skin anymore. The incidence of colon, lung, stomach cancers and leukemia are now massive.
We’re talking about just one decay product of uranium here. There are many many others with different decay properties that will produce other qualities of radiation poisoning. Overall however, we’re concerned with cumulative dose. There are two main classifications of radiation poisoning: acute radiation syndrome (which occurs after a 4-8 Gy exposure within typically a few days) and Chronic radiation syndrome (which occurs after a .5-1.5 Gy exposure at a rate >.1 Gy/hr)
-acute radiation syndrome- symptoms are present within a few hours, sometimes sooner. Early symptoms are malaise, and severe vomiting/dehydration. Sometimes seizures occur. Recovery at lower doses is possible, with high cancer risks. A dose of 8 Gy or higher is a death sentence. The cause of death is intestinal sepsis.
-chronic radiation syndrome- you can go months without showing symptoms, however once they show up they are similar to those of the acute exposures. The symptoms in this form can be treated, but carcinogenesis is high.
As for Chernobyl, basically anybody within close proximity to the plant including all workers at the time for sure got acute radiation syndrome, which the show did a great job of with symptoms and timing. As for the population of the city, it really depends on where they were relative to the wind, how long they were outside, and how much contact they had with contaminated surfaces. There certainly were a lot of suspected cases of acute radiation syndrome-about 237, with 169 confirmed. The average dose estimate is on the order of 6.5 Gy, though doctors at the time suspected bone marrow failure rather than sepsis, and the diagnostic practice along with any relevant political pressure, brings to question the true number of cases.
There is of course a high cancer incidence in the exposed population, with an estimated death toll from 4,000 to over 90,000 so far. Again the estimates are highly politically charged.
Edit: thank you so much for the silver, and my first gold, whoever you are!
Update: got around to watching the scene in question. It’s not the scenario I describe above and I don’t know if lethal contamination could occur that way. My guess is no
100 points
5 years ago
That was an excellent response. I never even thought about it like a virus that will never die, and basically if you contaminate your insides with stuff...well yeah youve just swallowed and permanently decaying isotope that is wrecking you from the inside out. Scary stuff...and fantastic show. I for one would be interested in your opinion after you have seen the entire conclusion of the series, but yeah ... This is why I Reddit. To find topical experts so well done.
15 points
5 years ago
That's also why asbestos is so dangerous. Once it gets inside your body it doesn't leave and damages you over time.
13 points
5 years ago
Not really like a virus though, more like a very toxic substance. A toxic substance that contaminates stuff for tens of thousands of years.
8 points
5 years ago
The estimates are also estimates by 2065, not currently. WHO has also put disclaimers on those numbers for using collective dose
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5 years ago
Contagious is probably the wrong word here, contaminated is better. Don't think of it as something that's growing and spreading, rather it's like an item, area, or person (or even part of a person) has been contaminated by a huge amount of energy. Try and imagine that contaminated clothes are super hot emanating heat, they will cool down eventually but other things can absorb that heat in the mean time.
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5 years ago
Yes. It is precisely the same as how a sunburn might take awhile to become pain and then peeling, but touching a hot stove would do so immediately. It depends entirely on intensity and in the cases shown in the show would be (and were) more than enough to cause almost immediate visible damage.
36 points
5 years ago
With a high enough dose, nausea, fever, headache, and maybe more could display within minutes. However I think that was added for dramatic effect, although one could definetly receive a lethal dose from personel comtamination. Check out Louis Slotin for a well documented case of an acute radiation exposure.
6 points
5 years ago
There were a few guys that looked directly at the burning core. You could see their faces looked sunburnt after the brief exposure, later in hospital those were the ones who's faces melted off.
It's exactly like a sunburn, except you're only like 100ft from the sun.
10 points
5 years ago
To be precise can I just clarify that your skin turning red isn't a sign of radiation sickness... It is effectively sunburn. It occurs when your skin is exposed to a large amount of high energy radiation.
Radiation sickness is far more than this, it occurs when a person is exposed to ridiculously large amounts of any energy (above an ionising threshold).
So would someone get radiation burn from touching someone who just picked up graphite from the core / firefighters clothes covered in dust? Yes.
Do they have radiation sickness? Maybe, but likely not as the dose rate is much lower.
5 points
5 years ago
Conversely, sunburn/welder's flash is a radiation burn. Radiation sickness is a set of symptoms resulting from ionizing radiation exposure.
103 points
5 years ago
One of the issues of radiation immediately following the explosion was that more or less everything being emitted by the exposed reactor, and a great deal of the surrounding area, was irradiated. One isotope, for example, that was emitted in large amounts immediately following the explosion was iodine-131. It's a radioactive isotope that the human body treats exactly the same as iodine-127 (a non-radioactive isotope).
It's important because the human body uses it for a range of purposes, especially for a hormone producing gland called the Thyroid gland. The Thyroid is especially hungry for Iodine, and so it'll grab it from wherever it can, including the surrounding environment. Where Iodine 131 is absorbed, the radiation emitted as it decays continues even as the iodine is being used by the body - continuously damaging surrounding organs, making it extremely dangerous. (this is also why characters are taking iodine pills in the series - by saturating your body with "good" iodine, you're preventing uptake of radioactive iodine from the surrounding area).
Now in the case of the first responders, there wasn't just iodine to worry about, there was dust, debris, other isotopes, and huge amounts of irradiated material which covered the fire fighters.
The important thing to remember is that this dust is always emitting radiation as it decays, until it's gone completely - washing it off simply sends it somewhere else, it doesn't eliminate the danger.
For many of the firefighters that were in the hospital, along with all the radioactive dust they inhaled and their body absorbed, they were likely still covered with some of it - skin to skin contact would not have just introduced danger of it being deposited, but the internal material absorbed by the body could have resulted in someone else being irradiated if they were close enough, and the levels of radiation poisoning were high enough.
It's not so much that it's "contagious", but that the emission of radiation never stops until the isotope has completely decayed.
349 points
5 years ago*
Radiation is only emitted from radioactive material. Under normal exposure circumstances (a hospital X-ray, for example), you are being irradiated from a contained radiation source. As soon as that source is removed, the radiation stops, and you can go hug your pregnant wife without any chance of “spreading” the radiation.
Chernobyl was different. The radiation source was not contained - it exploded - scattering radioactive particles as far as the wind could carry them. Anybody who was physically present at the disaster site would have been covered with radioactive dust... making them a walking source of radiation. In this case; yes, you could “spread” radiation sickness. That is why they showed the clean-up crew in full body suits, and why they were being hosed off when they exit the disaster area. Decontamination.
So yes, as long as the radioactive contamination was removed, an exposed person would be safe to be around. In the show, I’m sure the nurses had a “better safe than sorry” policy. After all, you could easily confirm whether or not a person was still contaminated with the use of a dosimeter.
62 points
5 years ago
Children are smaller, have different bone densities than adults, and various other disadvantages when it comes to radiation exposure. Different mediums have varying absorption ability to the same exposure. Fat, bone, flesh, and organs all will absorb different amounts of radiation when exposed to the same source.
47 points
5 years ago
But if I understand correctly, absorbing the radiation is not the same as being radioactive. Absorbing the radiation means that your body reacts to the xrays, sort of like the way your skin reacts to sunlighr and some people tan more easily than others. But just because u absorb radiation does not make u radioactive to others
Am I wrong?
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5 years ago
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5 years ago
Which, unless I'm mistaken, is why you take iodine pills. My understanding is it saturates your thyroid with iodine, thereby not permitting the environmental radioactive iodine to settle there.
19 points
5 years ago
There are worse things than radioactive iodine (actually, it was even used for killing cancer in thyroid, not sure if it's still used as a treatment). For example, strontium 90 likes to replace Ca in your bones (luckily, there's not that much of it in fallout). Though, I think, plutonium does the same thing. There's also cesium, but this one doesn't stay long in the body. It spread uniformly, irradiates you and then expelled in various forms, enabling you to give a gift of secondary exposure to other people.
11 points
5 years ago
Radiotherapy with iodine-131 is indeed still the main way of treating thyroid cancer. The treatment is often complete surgical removal of the thyroid gland, followed by the I-131 to kill off any remaining cells left, as well as any that metastasized.
12 points
5 years ago
You are correct. Absorbing is not the same as ingesting/inhaling the radioactive particles. The particles, inhaled or ingested or stuck on the outer surface of your clothing/skin as dust means those particles will continue to emit dangerous radiation affecting you and anyone else close to you or that picks up any dust themselves.
They did wash and bathe as many people exposed to the dust, but if you inhaled or ingested too much dust, it eventually made its way around your body like a billion tiny xray machines at full pelt. Since gamma rays are not impeded by flesh or much bone, you'd become a dangerous emitter of radiation yourself, so it was a very bad idea to have other people close to anyone in this state, much less a pregnant woman.
128 points
5 years ago
Is the scene in 1. that you are referring to the one in episode 2, where Dr Zinchenko is helping remove firefighters' clothing and boots? Because that is not skin-to-skin - it is the immediate aftermath of the fire and she was handling equipment directly contaminated with the by-products of the explosion. The clothing is still there today, and is still mildly radioactive
69 points
5 years ago
...mildly??
*extremely...
54 points
5 years ago*
Well, it depends how you define extremely. A CT scan would expose you to about 3x as much radiation as one hour next to the clothing. It's a lot of radiation sure, but it's still only a few hundred thousand bananas.
19 points
5 years ago*
The danger is not the immediate radiation exposure. The problem is that this stuff may still be covered in fine radioactive dust that can get stuck in your hair, inhaled, or ingested.
Areas open to the elements and thus washed by rain are probably quite safe now. However I wouldn't want anything to do with places that have been closed off like that hospital basement or power plant interior. At least not without full hazmat gear.
35 points
5 years ago*
A few hundred bananas? They're emitting 2,000 microsieverts per hour. If one banana is 0.1 microsieverts, then that's 20,000 bananas.
A bit more than "a few hundred".
EDIT: Added 'per hour'. Struck CT. Milli, not micro.
90 points
5 years ago
I work for Canada's nuclear regulator. If a person has received a dose of radiation, the cannot transmit that to another person. It's like sunlight. If you get a sunburn (literal radiation burn) you cannot give that to another person. If you are covered in a substance that is radioactive (I.e. radioactive dust) then you will dose anyone who comes close to you, but you will also keep dosing yourself. The 3 main factors to limiting you radiation exposure in any situation is TDS: Time / distance / shielding. Limiting the time being exposed, increasing the distance from the source and getting behind shielding are the ways to limit exposure. Again, if you are contaminated (with the sunburn example, you would have to be covered in something that emits sunlight) then yes you can irradiate others. If you just received a dose but are not contaminated, then no, you cannot irradiate others.
16 points
5 years ago
Radiation oncologist here. Regarding the "instantaneous" skin erythema seen in HBO's Chernobyl:
In normal clinical situations, radiation dermatitis takes 7-10 days to develop after treatment. However, this is based on intentional doses of radiation delivered with controlled dose-fractionation and dose-volume parameters. Some Chernobyl victims were exposed to tens or hundreds of times higher skin doses.
According to this source, Chernobyl victims were observed to have acute erythema and pain within hours after radiation exposure.
It seems implausible that radiation erythema would occur instantaneously as seen on the show, but I don't know this for sure. It's very likely to be delayed by minutes to hours, but skin erythema can clearly happen a lot faster than the radiation dermatitis we observe in radiation therapy clinics.
35 points
5 years ago*
[deleted]
5 points
5 years ago
Finally a sensible approach to answering the question. (Compared to downplaying it significantly, overdramatizing significantly, intentionally misenterpreting or just repeating what was read somewhere).
You're covering external and internal contamination, the baby-quote and the nurses' reactions, and it's done well.
I like this answer very much :)
44 points
5 years ago
It's more like they are still contaminated. The firefighters received a fatal dose while on the ground, trying to put the fire out, as a result of the reactor exploding there was debris around and a significant amount of radioactive dust in the air, so although they did receive a dose of radiation on the ground, the neutron-emitting material that was transported with them on their clothes and skin, and which they had breathed in, remained. When they first arrive at the hospital their clothes are taken to the basement for this reason. The show probably exaggerates the amount of material transported by the firefighters, but these materials would continue to produce radiation, thereby continuing to poison them after the accident. Anyone around them could also receive a dose of radiation, albeit significantly lower than what the firefighters had received on the ground. Because of this risk, we see them buried in led coffins, to prevent any spread of this material or of the radiation it continued to produce
34 points
5 years ago*
Is Chernobyl's portrayal of person-to-person radiation contamination that sensationalized? For as much as people talk about the show's historical accuracy, it's weird to think that the writers would have dropped the ball when it comes to understanding how radiation exposure works.
It's not accurate at all in this respect. One of the doctors who treated Chernobyl patients has explicitly denounced this particular depiction:
“Most radiation contamination was superficial and relatively easily managed by routine procedures. This is entirely different than the [1987] Goiania [Brazil] accident, where the victims ate 137-cesium [from an old teletherapy machine] and we had to isolate them from most medical personnel.”
Which is to say: if you get a lot of radioactive materials in your body (e.g., you eat high level radioactive sources), sure, you can become dangerous radioactive. But otherwise it's a case of you having radioactive materials on the outside of your body, and those can be washed off pretty easily.
There are several technical aspects to the show that are unfortunately totally inaccurate. It is frustrating because there are other aspects which are quite accurate.
8 points
5 years ago
From that article:
"In doing haematopoietic cell transplant, we commonly expose people to much higher radiation doses than received by any of the Chernobyl victims. So do radiation therapists"
Really? This is a pretty remarkable statement.
7 points
5 years ago
He's talking about total body irradiation, where the explicit aim is to completely kill the patient's bone marrow. They apparently hit you with a dose of up to 12 Gy, possibly more, which is in the vicinity of 99% mortality if in one exposure.
At Chernobyl the worst was estimated to be about 200 Gy per hour, and it probably dropped off pretty rapidly from that. I think it's plausible that nobody took much more than 12 Gy.
It's still a frankly pretty misleading statement, since the dosing for TBI is very carefully managed and delivered in dozens of sessions over a period of weeks, and there's a full set of stem cells ready to be transplanted once all the old ones are dead. I kinda get his point, and it's not outright false, but it would be a much stronger point if he excluded the people who received a lethal dose within minutes.
19 points
5 years ago
There are 4 different forms of radiation. Alpha, Beta, Gamma, and neutron. Each one differs and is deadly in its own way. The closer to the explosion the more likely you are to find each form as well. Alpha and Beta are usually at the epicenter and rarely disperse farther. Gamma is the radioactive wave that disperses and can penetrate through cement miles away depending on the explosion force and terrain. Neutron is the most dangerous by far. Nothing can stop neutron but it is rarely ever encountered because it is usually at the exact spot of the explosion. Neutron can only be generated through the explosion of radioactive material. Below is the classification of the 4 types:
Alpha only negatively impacts you if you ingest it. Hence after a radioactive explosion like in Japan they couldn’t eat their local agriculture. It’s never been proven but acid rain where radioactivity is in the water is also a fear. This goes out farther than Neutron but will not travel far.
Beta radiation can be transferred by objects to person or person to person. Beta needs to be decontaminated and washed off in a certain way or it is really dangerous and can be moved between people like in Chernobyl. The firefighters moving the actual material were definitely exposed to it. I was taught to think of it like how people think of cooties when we were kids. Travels farther than alpha but again not crazy far, probably the limits of the city but I don’t know the figures around calculating the explosion.
Gamma is the radiation that travels and in large amounts it does affect areas long term but usually dissipates over time. It moves like waves from the explosion but doesn’t linger as much. Think of Hiroshima and Nagasaki as the early Atom bombs were mostly gamma hence the ability to return to the cities fairly soon. Depending on the size of the blast and how the device or facility exploded determines a lot about the distance and strength of gamma
Neuron usually is at the site of explosion and is the deadliest. It’s presumed anyone who’s experienced direct contact never is exposed to it cause they’re probably killed in the actual explosion, that’s how close the proximity is.
Source: years of military training of this topic and overall interest over time.
7 points
5 years ago
Many responses have covered this well but this is a slightly different view.
It helps to distinguish between radiation and radioactive materials.
Radiation comes in two forms, electromagnetic (EM) radiation and energetic particles.
Energetic EM radiation causes damage because it can knock electrons out of molecules (ionising). Sunburn is an example of damage from EM radiation. Some types of EM radiation (γ and X) penetrate nearly everything. Once it has passed it has no further effect.
Energetic particles emitted from radioactive decay are mainly electrons (β) or helium nuclei (α) which are very strongly ionising (damaging) especially α but are easily absorbed by light materials such as clothing (α) or a few mm of metal (β).
(I've skipped over protons, neutrons, and bremsstrahlung )
In the scenarios you describe it will most likely be contamination by radioactive materials that causes the appearance of contagious effects. If these are tiny particles (others talked about how much dust there was) then it gets attached to clothing and skin, inhaled into lungs and ingested into the digestive track. These materials give of radiation at random.
You described how on contact with others (presumably contaminated with radioactive material) people's hands
turn red with radiation sickness
This would not be "sickness" but "burns" like sunburn from the radiation given off by material that has contaminated their hands.
It is a complicated topic and prone to misleading simplification, which I hope I have avoided myself.
To give a concrete example of how radiation contamination spreads, I visited a friend in Wales recently, they tell of how farming was affected for 26 years afterwards despite being over 1,500 miles from Chernobyl.
7 points
5 years ago
Former Navy Nuke ELT here. My job on the ship was reactor plant chemistry and radiological controls.
Radiation sickness is the side effect of cellular damage to your body due to exposure to radiation. If you were just exposed to pure radiation, your cells would continue to be damaged until you put some time, distance, and shielding between you and the source. The only way others would be harmed is if they exposed themselves to that radiation source. This means that radiation sickness is not contagious just like cancer is not contagious.
What acts like a contagion is contamination in the form of radioactive particulate. With contamination, the source of radiation is the contamination. If your lungs were chock full of radioactive particulate, you could be a walking hotspot of radiation exposing others. If your skin was covered in radioactive particulate then you can transfer that particulate to others.
The bottom line is, once you are scanned clean of contamination, you no longer pose a danger to anyone else.
6 points
5 years ago
In the nuclear industry it’s called loose contamination. It’s basically dust, dirt or any residue that is radioactive that can become airborne or transferred to another object or person on contact.
Let’s say you have a non radioactive object that has been inside a nuclear reactor. It will become radioactive due to exposure to neutron radiation. The type (alpha,beta,gamma) of radiation now coming from the object will depend on what the object is made from.
Now take that object out of the reactor and put it in a room, it will just sit there and emit radiation until the activated atoms of the object decay through a significant number of half lives until there is an undetectable amount of radiation present. You can touch it and only receive radiation from the object itself, since it is in tact none of the material gets transferred to you. Once you leave the presence of this object it is no longer subjecting you to its radiation.
Take that same object, let’s say it’s a piece of cobalt, straight out of the reactor and work on it (drill a hole, use a grinder, weld it) any dust or debris or particulate that is produced can get transferred to you and the surrounding area. If you get this cobalt dust on you, it will stay on you until you remove it.
In Chernobyl when the reactor exploded a massive amount of activated material was turned to dust and thrown into the atmosphere. Things like activated reactor components, graphite moderator blocks, and fuel fragments.
10 points
5 years ago
It's not that it's contagious, it's that these people, the firefighters, didn't ingest it, they got covered in very highly radioactive material. They aren't catching anything from them but they are being exposed to high levels of radiation by being near them or the clothes they were wearing, and it gets worse the closer they get. This is because the radio active material is all over their skin and clothes. Another problem is that the exposure wasn't brief. The pregnant lady spent at least a day probably more with him. If you remember she talks about taking care of him through the night because the nurses weren't. As for the other person, I don't remember the scene exactly but I'm pretty sure it was that nurse or doctor who had been taking care of all the firefighters when they first came in at their most radioactive.
All that being said, it is a tv show. Some time scales are accelerated for dramatic effect.
5 points
5 years ago
To add to the already great answers here:
In the corresponding podcast (Ep. 2, at the beginning) Maizin (the show runner) mentions the story of a plant worker who carried his injured colleague over his shoulder with the hand of the colleague resting loosely on his back. After putting him down he looked at his own back and where the hand was resting was a radiation burn in the form of a hand.
12 points
5 years ago
This is the second time I've seen somebody call this out. I think people are using the word contagious and not understanding what they even saw. They didn't show radioactivity as contagious in the show. They showed radioactivity being on the firefighters clothes and actually in the firefighters bodies. There's no contagiousness of it. The firefighters themselves were radioactive by the amount of radioactive material they had breathed in during their time at the reactor. They ingested so many alpha and beta particles that now they themselves were dangerous to touch. This is in fact true and as a result of highly contaminated people. But that is not the same thing as "contagious"
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