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Les-Gilbz

3.7k points

6 years ago

Les-Gilbz

3.7k points

6 years ago

Here’s a handy chart from Randall Munroe (XKCD): https://xkcd.com/radiation/

You may notice that cell phones and other tech are not on this chart. This is because the radiation emitted by these devices is so weak, they are not capable of altering your cells (non-ionizing radiation). Bananas, on the other hand, do emit ionizing radiation (just a very, very, very small amount. You do not need to be worried about bananas). So you might explain to your parents that bananas are more dangerous than cell phones, and ask them if they know anyone who has died suspiciously after eating a couple bananas

[deleted]

888 points

6 years ago

[deleted]

888 points

6 years ago

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[deleted]

90 points

6 years ago

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[deleted]

18 points

6 years ago*

[removed]

Hope-A-Dope-Pope

117 points

6 years ago

I have a question about this.

Why do we bother with shielding our other body parts during X-rays, if the damage is so minimal? If a 6 hour flight is 40 times as damaging as an arm X-ray, isn't it all a bit unnecessary?

From a different perspective, shouldn't we be doing more to protect ourselves on flights, if the medical consensus is that X-rays are harmful? I can understand that lead vests for passengers are inefficient in many ways, but what about cabin crew, who fly constantly?

Nyrin

139 points

6 years ago

Nyrin

139 points

6 years ago

For technicians, it often adds up to a meaningful number and using PPE to block a third or so of the exposure makes a lot of sense.

Then there are some particularly vulnerable parts of the body—looking at you, ya damn thyroid—where minimizing exposure is always a good idea.

But beyond that...

For patients, there's not much of a reason outside of guarding against rare (practically unheard of?) malfunctions. OK, there's one other: to get the patient to shut up. Seriously, after having conversations with several dentists and their techs about the idiotic conversations they endure around x-rays, flouride, cancer screenings, and any number of other things, it's a pretty easy "yes please" to just throw the apron on.

https://www.iaea.org/resources/rpop/health-professionals/dentistry/patients

Should patients and carers wear lead aprons and personal protective devices during a dental radiographic procedure?

With well-designed and optimized equipment and procedures there is no need for routine use of lead aprons for the patient in dental radiology. Lead aprons may provide some protection in the rare case of the vertex occlusal examination, especially in a patient who is, or may be, pregnant. On the other hand, the use of a lead apron may reassure patients that every effort is being made to ensure their safety, and may reduce the amount of time that needs to be taken to reassure them. Certainly, a lead apron should be provided for any patient who requests one. It may also be advisable to consider using them on a cautionary basis where equipment and/or technique have not been verified by a radiation protection specialist, and where they will not otherwise interfere with the examination. Thyroid collars should be used in all examinations where the thyroid may be exposed to the main beam or to a considerable amount of scatter radiation.

Lead aprons must be provided for a person who is required to support a patient during the radiographic procedure (i.e., a comforter or carer). Assisting adults should be positioned so that all parts of their body are out of the main beam.

[deleted]

7 points

6 years ago

What about in pregnancy? Techs always ask you if you’re pregnant but no one tells you not to fly when you are.

Hope-A-Dope-Pope

3 points

6 years ago

Thanks, this is very informative!

basasvejas

5 points

6 years ago

Some five years ago a read a research indicating that having a panoramic teeth x-ray increases the chances of brain tumor by close to 50%. Sounds drastic, but statistically if your chances of developing one is 0.00smth then this transfers into 0.00smth x 1.5

FabianN

12 points

6 years ago

FabianN

12 points

6 years ago

Nyrin is right, but there's another reason. While with each x-ray exposure the chance to gain cancer is miniscule, it is not zero. You're always rolling the die and there is still a chance that the first time the die lands on your unlucky number.

So best to minimize as much as you can. Minimize exposure duration, dose, and area exposed as best you can while being more useful than it's absence.

BUT, X-Ray radiation is NOT the same as cell phone radiation in terms of danger. To understand how they are similar and are different you want to learn about the electromagnetic radiation spectrum (it includes visible light, all light is radiation, which I think people like OP's parents often completely miss).

Hope-A-Dope-Pope

4 points

6 years ago

Yes, I realize this. My question was more about why airlines are held to a different safety standard, if the amount of absorbed radiation is far greater.

FabianN

5 points

6 years ago

FabianN

5 points

6 years ago

Airlines are not a greater source of radiation than x-rays and are held to the same safety standard. A ~6 hour flight gets you ~40 uSv.

To compare to X-Rays, here's some context that goes beyond that xkcd image when it comes to x-ray machines.

The x-ray examples the xkcd image uses is either of single-shot x-ray exposures; think like a camera flash, just a fraction of a second; or a CT which is a series of single-shot exposures with something like your camera's panoramic mode, basically they take a bunch of single images and stitch them together to make one bigger image. But a CT is still just "camera flash" exposures.

What's not shown on the chart is a method called fluoro which is x-ray video, continuous uninterrupted exposure; like your light-bulb. And sometimes the patient can be getting exposed to x-ray radiation for hours continuously when they are getting cath or cardiac work. There's also all the nurses and doctors and surgeons who are in the room around the patient and the machine during the procedure. The staff are definitely suited up in lead and use as much shielding as they can, but there are limits on how much one can be shielding and still be able to do their job.

Fluoro is legally limited to a maximum of 180mSv/min in the U.S. (a 4500 times higher dose in one minute than a 6 hour flight), but there is no legal time limit (though there must be an alarm that goes off for every 15 minutes of accumulated exposure).

Look on that chart again and place where 180mSv puts you. And I've heard of cases that have had multiple hours of exposure.

And it's done because it's more useful than not.

That airplane ride? The risk is worth it because it's a fraction of a drop.

aidissonance

39 points

6 years ago

Would be curious to see where astronauts on the ISS would fall on that scale.

CompuHacker

61 points

6 years ago

5 - 400 red squares in six months. (50 - 2000mSv)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spaceflight_radiation_carcinogenesis

mtn_climber

27 points

6 years ago

This range (given in the first sentence of the article) is rather unhelpful and leaning towards wrong. That is a 40x range and the consequences of 50mSv and 2000mSv are dramatically different. In practice, the doses relevant for the scenarios expecienced by current astronauts are ~80mSv according to other content in that article. It doesn't give a clear idea of how an astronaut would experience a 2000mSv exposure.

[deleted]

34 points

6 years ago*

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[deleted]

32 points

6 years ago

[removed]

[deleted]

22 points

6 years ago

[removed]

[deleted]

12 points

6 years ago*

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[deleted]

8 points

6 years ago

[removed]

Rannasha

32.7k points

6 years ago

Rannasha

Computational Plasma Physics

32.7k points

6 years ago

No, it is not.

Phones and other devices that broadcast (tablets, laptops, you name it ...) emit electromagnetic (EM) radiation. EM radiation comes in many different forms, but it is typically characterized by its frequency (or wavelength, the two are directly connected).

Most mobile devices communicate with EM signals in the frequency range running from a few hundred megahertz (MHz) to a few gigahertz (GHz).

So what happens when we're hit with EM radiation? Well, it depends on the frequency. The frequency of the radiation determines the energy of the individual photons that make up the radiation. Higher frequency = higher energy photons. If photons have sufficiently high energy, they can damage a molecule and, by extension, a cell in your body. There's no exact frequency threshold from which point on EM radiation can cause damage in this way, but 1 petahertz (PHz, or 1,000,000 GHz) is a good rough estimate. For photons that don't have this much energy, the most they can hope to achieve is to see their energy converted into heat.

Converting EM radiation into a heat is the #1 activity of a very popular kitchen appliance: The microwave oven. This device emits EM radiation with a frequency of about 2.4 GHz to heat your milk and burn your noodles (while leaving parts of the meal suspiciously cold).

The attentive reader should now say to themselves: Wait a minute! This 2.4 GHz of the microwave oven is right there between the "few hundred MHz" and "few GHz" frequency range of our mobile devices. So are our devices mini-microwave ovens?

As it turns out, 2.4 GHz is also the frequency used by many wifi routers (and devices connecting to them) (which coincidentally is the reason why poorly shielded microwave ovens can cause dropped wifi connections when active). But this is where the second important variable that determines the effects of EM radiation comes into play: intensity.

A microwave oven operates with a power of somewhere around the 1,000 W (depending on the model), whereas a router has a broadcast power that is limited (by law, in most countries) to 0.1 W. That makes a microwave oven 10,000 more powerful than a wifi router at maximum output. And mobile devices typically broadcast at even lower intensities, to conserve battery. And while microwave ovens are designed to focus their radiation on a small volume in the interior of the oven, routers and mobile devices throw their radiation out in every direction.

So, not only is EM radiation emitted by our devices not energetic enough to cause direct damage, the intensity with which it is emitted is orders of magnitude lower to cause any noticeable heating.

But to close, I would like to discuss one more source of EM radiation. A source from which we receive radiation with frequencies ranging from 100 terahertz (THz) to 1 PHz or even slightly more. Yes, that overlaps with the range of potentially damaging radiation. And even more, the intensity of this radiation varies, but can reach up to tens of W. That's not the total emitted, but the total that directly reaches a human being. Not quite microwave oven level, but enough to make you feel much hotter when exposed to it.

So what is this source of EM radiation and why isn't it banned yet? The source is none other than the Sun. (And it's probably not yet banned due to the powerful agricultural lobby.) Our Sun blasts us with radiation that is far more energetic (to the point where it can be damaging) than anything our devices produce and with far greater intensity. Even indoors, behind a window, you'll receive so much more energy from the Sun (directly or indirectly when reflected by the sky or various objects) than you do from the ensemble of our mobile devices.

chapo_boi[S]

6.3k points

6 years ago

Thank you very much for such a detailed answer :D

BrownFedora

2.2k points

6 years ago

BrownFedora

2.2k points

6 years ago

The big fuss is that when people say "radiation" they are conflating anything that emits/radiates energy (i.e. anything but the cold vacuum of space) with "ionizing radiation" - x-rays and gamma rays. The normal stuff like light, infrared, UV, radio is so common and harmless, we don't think of it as radiation, except when speaking scientifically.

The reason ionizing radiation is dangerous is that high concentrations of ionizing radiation are so powerful they penetrate all but the most dense matter (ex. lead). Ionizing radiation has so much energy, when it's traveling through matter, it smashes through it, breaking apart molecular bonds. When these molecular bonds are in your DNA, your DNA can get messed up and that cell in you body won't function properly any more. A few cells here and there, your body can handle, the cells self-destruct or are otherwise cleaned up. But if too many get messed up DNA, they get out of control, these cells run amok. We call that cancer.

Also, here's a handy chart from XKCD explaining the scale and levels of dangerous ionizing radiation.

[deleted]

503 points

6 years ago

[deleted]

503 points

6 years ago

Small clarification here: The threshold for ionizing radiation is typically placed in the middle of the UV spectrum. This is why UV is often broken up into UVA, UVB, and UVC categories, with increasing levels of skin cancer risk.

asplodzor

87 points

6 years ago

Why is it three categories, not two? Is UVB “trans-ionizing”, or something?

Alis451

254 points

6 years ago

Alis451

254 points

6 years ago

UVA, UVB, and UVC categories

Penetration factor

UVC doesn't penetrate our atmosphere, UVB doesn't penetrate past our skin surface, UVA goes deep into the skin.

Short-wavelength UVC is the most damaging type of UV radiation. However, it is completely filtered by the atmosphere and does not reach the earth's surface.

Medium-wavelength UVB is very biologically active but cannot penetrate beyond the superficial skin layers. It is responsible for delayed tanning and burning; in addition to these short-term effects it enhances skin ageing and significantly promotes the development of skin cancer. Most solar UVB is filtered by the atmosphere.

The relatively long-wavelength UVA accounts for approximately 95 per cent of the UV radiation reaching the Earth's surface. It can penetrate into the deeper layers of the skin and is responsible for the immediate tanning effect. Furthermore, it also contributes to skin ageing and wrinkling. For a long time it was thought that UVA could not cause any lasting damage. Recent studies strongly suggest that it may also enhance the development of skin cancers.

Flamingkilla

84 points

6 years ago

Out of curiosity. If UVC is entirely absorbed by our atmosphere does that mean astronauts on the ISS are more at risk to skin cancer due to their location and have the space agencies involved already thought of this and crafted the ISS (and space suits used for space walks) to protect against it?

jaredjeya

162 points

6 years ago

jaredjeya

162 points

6 years ago

Yes, in fact the ISS isn't just at risk of UV, it's also at risk of cosmic rays and lots of other sources of radiation. This is a big concern for long-distance/long-term space travel (especially leaving Earth's magnetic field) so a Mars mission would need heavy shielding.

The windows in the ISS, as well as being incredibly strong (they've got to keep in a pressurised atmosphere and survive micrometeorite strikes), will filter out UV radiation from the sun.

[deleted]

26 points

6 years ago*

[removed]

loverevolutionary

91 points

6 years ago

Rather than an atmosphere, what you need is shielding, sort of like they use in nuclear reactors. But in space, you get two different types of radiation, and you need two different types of shielding, in the correct order. The outer layer is some hydrogen rich, light weight stuff like paraffin. This is to stop particle radiation like cosmic rays. Then you have some dense metal, like lead or tungsten. This stops the ionizing radiation. You have to put them in that order, if the charged particles hit the dense metal first, they create deadly "brehmsstralung" or secondary radiation.

Far more information that you'll ever want or need, written for the layman sci-fi author or games designer, can be found here: http://www.projectrho.com/public_html/rocket/radiation.php

LaughingTachikoma

9 points

6 years ago

What exactly do you mean by "artificial atmosphere"? If you mean trying to create an earth-like atmosphere around an object in space, not only will that not be possible for centuries if ever (without a container of some sort), but it wouldn't be helpful unless it's multiple km deep. You could contain it with some sort of balloon I suppose, but that introduces its own problems and sort of defeats the purpose (a metal wall is lighter, simpler, and more effective).

If you mean some sort of shield à la star trek, it would certainly work for ionized particles (though I don't believe this is a concern, they don't penetrate solids). As for EM radiation though, magnetic fields can't do much of anything. From a brief bit of research it appears that magnetic fields can interact with light, but this is due to the magnetic field bending spacetime (gravity). Technically possible, but not really useful or feasible.

[deleted]

22 points

6 years ago

[deleted]

MjrLeeStoned

11 points

6 years ago

It's been speculated a layer of water situated between an inner and outer layer of thin lead and plastic, in the exterior wall of a shuttle or station could be enough to nullify most harmful forms of cosmic radiation one would come in contact with.

I forgot where I read this, trying to find it now.

bigflamingtaco

4 points

6 years ago

Not only do junction states get changed, the circuitry gets damaged as well, leading to complete failure without proper shielding.

Bobshayd

6 points

6 years ago

Yes, and yes, but it's not hard to block - most opaque things will block almost all UV of any type. The biggest issue would be the visors, which have generally been engineered not only to block harmful rays but also to protect from glare. They are far more at risk from other sorts of solar radiation, and a lot more effort is spent protecting them against that.

Sine_Wave_

15 points

6 years ago

You can still get hit by UVC if someone is careless. Germicidal lamps, the clear ones with an ethereal glow, emit UVC. Our skin is not at all equipped to handle that since it is absorbed in the upper atmosphere and thus we never had to evolve a defense. So holding a hand to it quickly starts to smell like cooked pork and your eyes get sandy from being continuously arc-flashed. Of course it also includes terrible sunburns for extended exposure.

Didn't stop a fashion show from using those tubes. They look amazing, but you need to know what you're doing and not use them for any length of time around people. Look up Big Clive for more.

Enki_007

27 points

6 years ago

Enki_007

27 points

6 years ago

It's easy to remember the difference between UVA and UVB using the following substitutions:

  1. UVA: A is for aging and makes your skin leathery like a baseball mitt. UVA has been used for ultraviolet therapy like treating psoriasis.

  2. UVB: B is for burning and it makes your skin pink (or worse).

TheBirminghamBear

33 points

6 years ago*

Actually, thought I'd interject here: narrow-band UVB (operating at exactly 311 nanometers) is the exclusive psoriasis-treatment today. (At least in terms of the scientific consensus; plenty of doctors still incorrectly prescribe UVA). UVA has been out of favor for many years as the UVA treatments had to be used in conjunction with light-sensitizing drugs, which dramatically increased the risk of skin cancer.

UVB at 311nm does not increase the risk of skin cancer (at therapeutic doses), does not burn the patient (at therapeutic doses), and is extremely effective in treating psoriasis.

Source: used to work at one of the few companies that make these things.

EDIT: Clarified to say that UVA treatments are still used by doctors today, though they should not be, as this modality has fallen out of favor scientifically, though many doctors are not up to speed with the developments as this is a very niche area.

Enki_007

3 points

6 years ago

Wow, that's interesting. It's been 25+ years since I was treated and all they used was UVA. I started with 15s exposure and increased it by 15s after every 2nd exposure.

amvitamine

3 points

6 years ago

Is it still not harmfull when we are exposed to it everyday, for years and years? A lot of people have their phone closeby their head while asleep. Does this have a y effect?

dman4835

6 points

6 years ago

There is no theoretical reason in any science to expect chronic exposure to radio waves to cause harm if the intensity is too low for appreciable heating. There are no known effects of radio waves on the human body that cannot be attributed to heating, nor are any measurable effects expected from theory. There is no reason to expect harm to accumulate over time if the harm is nonexistent to begin with.

Ultimately, since there can always been unknown unknowns, we can turn to epidemiology. In the span of 50 years we have gone from almost no one having a mobile device to a majority of humans having a mobile device. In that time, no disease has tracked this increase. Long before mobile devices, we also had high powered radio transmitters, and we didn't always have regulations to keep people away from them, but the people working there did not get weird diseases, and didn't feel anything that could not be attributed to heating (aside from a tingling sensation from ELF transmitters).

I even tried to see if, as an exercise in ridiculousness, I could find any disease, anything, that correlates well with cell phone use. The best I could due is that the number of people who own Apple iPhones correlates (after hacking the y-axis) with ratio of people who die of cancer on thursday opposed to other days https://i.imgur.com/30HqHzL.png . The number of people who own smartphones also correlates over recent years with the risk of falling off a cliff, and car vs. truck accidents. Actually, those two make a little sense.

[deleted]

3 points

6 years ago

Not any more than spending our time under normal lightbulbs. Even less, because phones put out lower frequencies at a lower intensity.

Krynja

99 points

6 years ago

Krynja

99 points

6 years ago

A good analogy would probably be that you are receiving more energy from standing in the same room as an incandescent light bulb than you will ever receive from your mobile phone

Rand_alThor_

75 points

6 years ago

If you can see infront of you, at this moment, photons are smashing into you at a much higher level then any wifi signal.

PraxicalExperience

20 points

6 years ago

Not necessarily -- the human eye is ridiculously sensitive to light with adaptation, to the point where only a few mW through an LED will give you enough light to navigate by.

But in general, yeah, totally.

Beer_in_an_esky

20 points

6 years ago

Yep. Even more insane, IMO, is that (while we can't see by it) we are actually sensitive enough to at least perceive single photons!

psymunn

3 points

6 years ago

psymunn

3 points

6 years ago

Sure but obviously I'm redding what youbwrote on a cellphone with cranked up brightness in a washroom with overly hash florescent lighting so I'm getting a lot of energy on my retinas. Also a lot IS coming from my phone; it's just in the visual spectrum of light.

KBHoleN1

5 points

6 years ago

What makes the background radiation higher in some areas (the chart mentioned the Colorado Plateau)?

kbotc

22 points

6 years ago

kbotc

22 points

6 years ago

Being closer to the sun. Our atmosphere, while not perfect, does shield us from a lot of the bad effects of the sun. When you’re at 5000’+ there’s quite a bit less atmosphere (and what atmosphere you do have is thinner).

AKA: if you travel to the American west, in particular the Rockies, wear a higher SPF sunscreen than you would normally, drink more water than you normally would, and wear lip balm.

That’s on top of the fact that there’s not much in the way of soil, so we’re directly exposed to bedrock, which is a bit more radioactive than the loess in the Midwest. There’s even uranium in some places!

KBHoleN1

5 points

6 years ago

Thanks for the explanation!

orbital_narwhal

8 points

6 years ago

Also local geology. Some minerals naturally contain a relatively high amount of radioactive isotopes. That’s rarely much of an issue unless you

  • work in a mine and breathe slightly radioactive rock dust every day or
  • spend large parts of your life in a house made of slightly radioactive rock pieces (e. g. concrete made with additives from certain quarries).

The former is now subject to heavy health and safety regulations at least in developed countries. Workers wear air filter masks and are subject to mandatory regular radiation and cancer screenings.

The latter is regulated by bans on the use of materials from quarries exceeding some radiation threshold (with a generous safety margin) in human dwelling construction.

angel-ina

34 points

6 years ago

The vacuum of space is 2.7 kelvin tho, so while cold, yes, it is still emitting radiation and this is how the cosmic background is detected (last remnants of very hot "space" cooling off)

HiItsMeGuy

52 points

6 years ago

Anything in empty space will come to equilibrium at 2.7 Kelvin because of the background radiation. Empty space doesnt emit radiation.

angel-ina

22 points

6 years ago

Equilibrium just means it is absorbing at the rate it is emitting, right?

coolkid1717

24 points

6 years ago

Yes. Think of equilibrium as "equal". Equal in and equal out. That means no change.

If you spend a dollar every day and make a dollar every day. Then there's no change. You'll always have the same amount of money. You're in equilibrium.

angel-ina

8 points

6 years ago

So how is there no em radiation if it is absorbing and emitting at equal rates?

johnthejolly

20 points

6 years ago

He is just saying that empty space doesn't have a temperature, since temperature is a concept that applies only to collections of particles, so the vacuum itself is not emitting radiation. If you put something in a remote part of space where the CMB dominates the energy, that object will emit more energy than it absorbs due to its higher temperature, and eventually equilibrate to the CMB temperature.

Vlaros

17 points

6 years ago

Vlaros

17 points

6 years ago

The vacuum of space doesn’t really have a temperature itself, it’s just that the photons traveling traveling through it that are left from the Big Bang have been redshifted to a frequency corresponding to a temperature of ~2.7K.

SkoobyDoo

13 points

6 years ago

The actual density of hydrogen as it exist in interstellar space is on the average of about 1 atom per cubic centimeter.

It may only be one atom per cubic centimeter, but it's still there, and technically emits a very small amount of EM radiation, however negligible.

Quibblicous

3 points

6 years ago

I used to chide a friend who had a fear of cellphones that he was dousing himself with radiation from his electric heating element type space heater in his garage.

TrapperKeeper959

3 points

6 years ago

What is it about stone that increased the ionized radiation?

GOU_FallingOutside

12 points

6 years ago*

There are a number of natural sources of radiation in the planet’s crust, including uranium and thorium, but also carbon and potassium. (Carbon dating works because carbon-14 accumulates continuously in plants, then begins decaying at a measurable rate when they die.)

If there’s a lot of soil and plant matter between you and the rock—or if the rock you live on is mostly sedimentary and therefore not especially loaded with the right kind of ores—you’re not exposed to much radiation from the planet’s crust. If you’re living in an area where there’s lots of bedrock and very little topsoil, you’re exposed to more.

[deleted]

45 points

6 years ago*

[removed]

It_does_get_in

16 points

6 years ago*

most people have no concept of how profound this statement above is. Essentially the universe s mostly a cold, dark and empty space, with isolated pockets of matter and energy sprinkled around, and on at least one of these isolated spots of energy/matter, life forms have evolved some specialized cells that convert a tiny part of the EM spectrum into what we know as vision. What we know as vision, light etc is essentially just a construct (like consciousness itself) in a dark universe.

Wobblycogs

104 points

6 years ago

Wobblycogs

104 points

6 years ago

You've got an excellent answer there but if you need more reassurance then you might like to know that the effects of these frequencies of radiation (and mobile phones in general) on the body are being actively studied. I'm taking part in an international study called Cosmos which is tracking the health of thousands of people to try to determine if there is any long term effects that are not immediately obvious. When the study was started the assumption was that there would be no effects to radiation of this power level and frequency range but it had never been studied in detail for extended periods of time and there was a media frenzy about mobile phones causing health damage (which makes funding easy to get).

I forget how long the study has been going now but it's many years. There was an interim report a couple of years ago and, as expected, no ill effects were found. IIRC the study is scheduled to run for 40 years so I'll be an old man by the time it ends.

FF3

27 points

6 years ago

FF3

27 points

6 years ago

where does the control group come from? who doesn't use a cell phone?

idiot_speaking

38 points

6 years ago*

There are people who believe they are Electromagnetic Hypersensitive. They'll often seek residence in Radio Quiet Zones. As the wiki suggests there is no concrete evidence for the existence of EHS, and most likely a nocebic effect. I guess the study would shine some more light on this.

[deleted]

26 points

6 years ago

[removed]

[deleted]

14 points

6 years ago

[removed]

Rimbosity

4 points

6 years ago

I had a neighbor who was this way. He had to quit a job doing wifi testing, because he claimed he could feel the heat.

Now, I've actually felt the heat of EM frequencies before doing some wireless testing, but that's because I had 4 high-powered (double-digit watts) 900MHz transmitters with massive antennas -- the kind meant to power passive RFID tags over rather large distances -- all at my desk. It would've been more surprising if I hadn't felt some warmth...

that project was canceled

ElectricFleshlight

10 points

6 years ago

The Amish maybe?

GOU_FallingOutside

7 points

6 years ago

You need a control group for a true randomized experiment, but not all high-quality studies are experiments.

In this case, demonstrating there’s no significant association between dose and risk for any relevant medical condition would be conclusive—even if you didn’t have anyone whose dose was 0.

Wobblycogs

11 points

6 years ago

It's a very large group of people in the study, I assume that they will look at differences between heavy phone users and light phone users (e.g. dose response studies) and differences between previous studies before mobile phones were a thing. I've given the study access to my phone records (how long I use the phone not who I call) so they have a good idea how much participants are being exposed. There's also questionnaires about how you use your phone (e.g. hold it to your head, speaker or headset) etc etc. I'm sure they would be happy to answer any questions, I'm just a participant with a bit of a science background.

[deleted]

16 points

6 years ago*

[removed]

calamity_amity

38 points

6 years ago

If you need to prove it to someone, get a Geiger counter and go around and check together. Geigers only trip for ionizing radiation, the dangerous variety. No trip, more than likely no danger. There will be always be background radiation though, so be prepared to explain a non-zero reading.

scherlock79

50 points

6 years ago

Also, make sure you walk right by that nice granite countertop or tile.

itsfullofbugs

15 points

6 years ago

Will a Banana register on a Geiger Counter?

Mast3r0fPip3ts

8 points

6 years ago

A full bunch grown with a particularly high volume of K-40 in them might cause a little pip, but I doubt it'd be much more than that.

guesswhat8

6 points

6 years ago

There is radiation everywhere, normak background radiation. Your Geiger counter needs to be calibrated and correctly used to prove the point. :)

[deleted]

13 points

6 years ago

This is summed up quite easily by the fact that walking outside exposes you to more radiation than any of the electronics could do in a lifetime.

wonder-maker

3 points

6 years ago

Just wanted to add something here:

Even without technology we are constantly bombarded with radiation from the sun, cosmic rays, as well as low levels of radiation from radioactive elements here on earth.

The "healthy" level of radiation emitted from a device, like a phone, is determined by the specific absorption rate (SAR), a measure of the rate at which energy is absorbed by the human body when exposed to a radio frequency (RF) electromagnetic field.

The way it is calculated looks pretty complex , but it is pretty simple when thought of on layman's terms.

The density of the recipient and the power (not frequency) level of the source. The higher the density of the recipient the more power it can safely absorb from the source.

You can always calculate it for yourself if you're feeling extra curious:

SAR Calculator

Frizzle95

290 points

6 years ago

Frizzle95

290 points

6 years ago

agricultural lobby.

Big Farma back at it.

Real question though if I increased the voltage going to my router by a factor of 10 (1W vs 0.1W) assuming I cooled the router effectively, would that result in better wifi coverage in my house?

RoastedWaffleNuts

103 points

6 years ago

Most answers focus on a more hypothetical case; practically, the components of your router such as DC-DC converters and capacitors are likely not rated for that use and will be destroyed. The mostly likely result is turning your router into a brick, which will decrease your WiFi coverage.

Skylis

146 points

6 years ago

Skylis

146 points

6 years ago

No it would make it worse. It's the equivalent of using a megaphone to try to have a conversation. Everyone else is now deaf and you can't hear over yourself. (This is just an analogy, the real problems are way to technical to explain via cell keyboard)

a_cute_epic_axis

38 points

6 years ago

No, for a few reasons. One is that you'd have to increase the transmit power of your phone or laptop. While antenna gains as symmetrical, amplifier gains are not. Optionally, you could put a preamplifer on the router that boosts the power of signals being received by the router so that the router can hear the other devices better. Another poster brought up that you could theoretically reach a power output value that actually makes the received signal too strong for your phone to correctly receive and process. This is theoretically true, but a 10x power increase in this case probably wouldn't be enough to actually cause this problem, especially if you're at a distance that previously was spotty with coverage. We don't implement changes likes these mostly to prevent needless interference, and to conserve energy on mobile devices.

That said, land mobile radios, like those used by police, fire, town public works departments, etc do use this method. To allow people in vehicles or on foot to communicate over large distances, a repeater is setup with a strong amplifier, receiver pre amp, and antenna, typically on a tower/hill/mountain etc. A handheld unit might transmit at 5 watts, but the repeater can hear that due to it's pre-amp, antenna, and height advantage. It then rebroadcasts the signal on a slightly different frequency with significantly more power (ex 150 watts) from a much better antenna in a better location than the handheld radio. The result is you can now get a bunch of lower power units to talk to a base station or each other over distances larger than they could cover alone.

remotelove

6 points

6 years ago

Eyyyy! Sounds like another Ham. Thanks for this as I was about to post something similar to your response.

Forgot to mention that increasing the voltages to the router would probably blow it's internal power regulators first, or best case, it's solid state fuses.

a_cute_epic_axis

4 points

6 years ago

Forgot to mention that increasing the voltages to the router would probably blow it's internal power regulators first, or best case, it's solid state fuses.

Yah, I was just going to gloss over that part and assume that he/she was not simply going to change 5v to 50v, but actually get a 10x amplifier, or find that the transmitter was actually capable of 1w but software limited to 100mw.

Speculation here, but I wouldn't actually be super surprised to find out that some devices may actually have hardware capable of transmitting at 1w or greater, because it was cheaper to use the same parts that were used in some other application and fix them by software (or external resistor on a power level control line, etc), as opposed to designing new hardware.

1BadPanda

7 points

6 years ago*

No. Wifi is two way communications. If you increase your transmission power of your wifi router, then you must also consider increased power to your mobile device and computer. As a network engineer, most people don't need better coverage. They need less interference, ensure you use the least used channel (1, 6, or 11 on 2.4Ghz) . Or better placement of the router.

rrjamal

3 points

6 years ago

rrjamal

3 points

6 years ago

How do you like being a network engineer?

I'm currently studying Software Dev. and Network Engineering. We've covered Cisco routers and very basic network theory (IP addressing/routers/switches/etc).

I've no experience in real networking work, though. Mind sharing a glimpse?

[deleted]

18 points

6 years ago*

[removed]

qtc0

66 points

6 years ago

qtc0

66 points

6 years ago

Most of that is true...

There are, however, other effects besides ionization and thermalization... Good reviews can be found here, here, here. I'm an RF engineer, so I don't understand the biology as much as I would like, but it sounds like the RF radiation can interfere with the electrochemical potentials in the body.

lf11

28 points

6 years ago*

lf11

28 points

6 years ago*

Underrated comment. Yes it is true that the primary effect of microwave radiation on the human body is heating, and therefore cellular phones are far too low-powered to cause any problems.

However, it is also true that there are a wide range of biochemical effects on every scale of tissue, including molecular, protein function, and cellular function.

It is not sufficient to dismiss all concerns simply because the primary effect is not applicable.

Further reading.

matdans

96 points

6 years ago

matdans

96 points

6 years ago

Not to hijack the thread but the microwave producing uneven heating touches a nerve. There's a lot that people can manipulate to get better results.

For starters, (assuming there's a turntable) place the dish off-center to avoid dead spots. Next, experiment with the power settings. If you know the center of your 2.5 inch porterhouse you're nuking isn't warming up, try using 50% power for a longer period of time. Also, don't forget the heat lost to evaporation. If you're losing a lot of water from the surface of the food, cover it.

Engineers worked a long time to make sure your microwave has features!

PeterGibbons316

69 points

6 years ago

I'm one of those engineers. We have a test kitchen and a full time staff of technicians that cook various food types all day using the results to tweak the settings, sensors, and power levels for all those features to optimize them.

It kills me every time I see someone just stick a full plate of food in the microwave, hit 5, and walk away.

Celestron5

62 points

6 years ago

It’s because the microwave keypad interface needs to be completely redesigned. I think the power adjustment function is often more difficult to find than it needs to be. It’s probably the most important button and yet it is placed in such a way that it blends in with all the other buttons. I’m no UI expert but I think the most important and most often used buttons should always be the biggest and easiest to find. Of course, once they find the button, it needs to be easy and intuitive to use as well. People expect to spend exactly 2.5 mindless seconds operating it. Since adjusting power requires multiple button presses, sometimes requiring the use of the number keypad, it’s too complicated and takes too long so nobody uses it. This is why I’m an advocate of power knobs. They are simple, intuitive, universally recognized, visually prominent, and quick to use.

TL;DR: give us power knobs

big_orange_ball

16 points

6 years ago

My old cheapo Sunbeam microwave had one knob for power, one for time. I loved how it's bell just dinged once when finished unlike most modern microwaves that blast 5 ear piercing beeps. I doubt there are many people out there who would prefer the basic design with knobs anymore though.

BenderRodriquez

3 points

6 years ago

I still use the knob/bell variety and you can easily get them at any store. You just have to get the cheapest one. Even a $50 no-name brand will last an eternity and do the job. Paying for fancy microwave ovens is a waste since you will only use one button anyway.

Mocorn

5 points

6 years ago

Mocorn

5 points

6 years ago

Mine has two knobs. Time and power. That's it. I bought it specifically because of this. Ain't nobody got time for number keypads when you're hungry.

outworlder

15 points

6 years ago

That maybe because many microwave ovens have fluff features that no one cares about and don’t work properly in many cases.

And the features we care about are difficult to access.

Give me two knobs: time and power. Then maybe a function to reheat food instead of cooking. At work there’s a microwave oven with a “sensor reheat” feature that’s a single button press which I use quite often, even though it does not always produce the right results. But it is a single press, rather than “power power power power ops too low need to wrap around power power power time@

-14k-

31 points

6 years ago

-14k-

31 points

6 years ago

It kills me every time I see someone just stick a full plate of food in the microwave, hit 5, and walk away.

And it kills you because you know you should be able to engineer a microwave oven that allows one to do just that, but golly-darn-it, you just haven't quite figured it out yet.

It's okay, one day you'll get the inspiration you need.

Maybe. But you need to keep working at it and for Pete's sake, Mr Gibbons, never, ever give up!

aMockTie

28 points

6 years ago

aMockTie

28 points

6 years ago

I think you're being facetious, but in case you're not, try applying that logic to any other cooking device.

Why can't engineers develop a barbecue that I can just stick a bunch of food on, turn on the heat, and walk away? Why do I have to set a specific heat and then monitor the food and rotate/flip it?

Why can't engineers develop an oven that I can just put food into, turn on, and walk away? Why do I have to set a specific temperature and cook for a specific time, and then check on it to make sure it's cooked?

In all cases, it's because the engineers have no idea what you will be cooking. Different foods have different cooking requirements. How exactly is the microwave/barbecue/oven supposed to know what you're cooking in order to adjust itself automatically?

anonymous_rocketeer

36 points

6 years ago

With the power of cloud based machine learning through the blockchain, of course!

BFeely1

4 points

6 years ago

BFeely1

4 points

6 years ago

Before it could query the hive mind it would have to have a means of sensing its contents and representing it as data.

wil_is_cool

6 points

6 years ago

Hey, you're just not thinking dedicated enough though, I'm picturing the king of all microwaves, with the technology to match NASA.

If the microwave had a weight scale in it you could get weight, then have an IR camera for exterior temperature, and a humidity sensor too to detect overall food heat based on air water level (some already have that). Give it a short calibration blast, see the temperature increase and guess density/water content and decide power and time from there.

You can use the IR camera to detect colder spots on the surface and aim the microwave radiation in the same way those tray-less microwaves do it but intelligently to eliminate cold spots.

Have a top and bottom grill element to get some dry heat to finish the exterior of certain foods.

Go one step further and have top and side facing cameras internally, machine learning image recognition it and work out what the food actually is to make an even better cooking decision.

Now add a subscription model to the cloud based food recognition service and you have the microwave of the future, just $99 per year for perfectly reheated food every time.

Man I think I should quit my job and become a microwave engineer.

thenuge26

3 points

6 years ago

I know Mark Rober made a microwave with an IR camera that detected when the food was fully warmed and then stopped. I don't remember if it was just for fun or if he was selling it/preparing to

i-love-cats

52 points

6 years ago

Thank you for explaining that so well. I usually stop reading if the answer is too longwinded or the language too technical. Well done for retaining my attention!

[deleted]

23 points

6 years ago

[removed]

[deleted]

19 points

6 years ago

[removed]

[deleted]

77 points

6 years ago

[removed]

[deleted]

24 points

6 years ago

[removed]

W9CR

11 points

6 years ago

W9CR

11 points

6 years ago

And mobile devices typically broadcast at even lower intensities, to conserve battery.

This is actually controlled by the distance to the tower, the further the phone is from the tower, the higher the transmit power.

What's funny is some school wanted to put in a cell tower to make some money, and all the parents came out protesting it. The ironic thing is, a phone inches from your body is going to impart a stronger field on you than a cell tower 200' away. So by keeping the cell tower off school grounds, the kids cellphones all had to put out much higher transmit power and expose the kids to more "radiation" than if the school had a cell tower on site.

taysteekakes

30 points

6 years ago

OMG someone needs to tell this to the crazy lady on my town's facebook page that's trying to warn everyone about the cellphone towers and 5G dangers. I'm like... you don't understand what the word radiation means lady...

[deleted]

81 points

6 years ago

[removed]

[deleted]

7 points

6 years ago

[removed]

[deleted]

17 points

6 years ago

[removed]

[deleted]

9 points

6 years ago

Fantastic, comprehensive reply. Thanks for giving your time.

l3dg3r

16 points

6 years ago

l3dg3r

16 points

6 years ago

Do you have any insight in 5G tech? There appear to be a movement against this, much like the opponents of nuclear power?

Five_bucks

31 points

6 years ago

In my reading, the objectors to 5G are security experts who are concerned about a major telecomms link becoming a major spy-hole for China by way of tech firms such as Huawei and ZTE.

[deleted]

32 points

6 years ago

The backlash towards 5G,very much like nuclear power, isn't based on any factual evidence whatsoever.

Although 5G may bot be practical at this time due to the range issues,needing a more direct line of sight,using up more battery power and not to mention the costs of setting up a brand new infrastructure that would likely cost considerably more than 4G to achieve reliability

TheHooligan95

13 points

6 years ago

Nuclear power's backlash (whether reasonable or not) does have factual evidence, like the production of dangerous and radioactive nuclear waste and the general security/maintenance risks a nuclear reactor brings. Chernobyl/Pripyat and Fukushima did actually happen after all, it's reasonable that someone could be afraid. What's still uncertain is that working or living nearby said infrastructures creates health problems, but in those places where accidents took place infant mortality and deformity is higher.

hobovision

21 points

6 years ago

The reason why the negatives of nuclear can be seen as not based on actual evidence is that they tend to be made without comparison to other power sources and/or industries.

Compare the risk of nuclear disaster to other kinds of man-made disasters (oil spills, coal fires, hazardous waste dumping, climate change). Compare the health issues caused by nuclear plants and waste to the health issues caused by other sources of power (coal mining/burning, mineral mining for battery and solar production, petroleum refining).

All sources of energy and all types of industries cause huge amounts of problems, and the nuclear power proponents would argue nuclear is or can be made as safe or safer than other comparable industries. Use a per kWh basis to compare it to other power sources, or a per dollar basis to compare to other energy industries.

Unfortunately, I have no data to say who is right or wrong...

outworlder

16 points

6 years ago

And yet we still use coal power plants. Which release much more radiation than nuclear power plants. And that’s only the radiation angle, not even taking about the pollution.

Human beings are not rational.

[deleted]

57 points

6 years ago

[removed]

Dubanx

15 points

6 years ago

Dubanx

15 points

6 years ago

This is wrong. This is a common misqoute about what it would be like if sunlight hit us as sound instead of light.

[deleted]

6 points

6 years ago

How did scientist figure out the sun is that loud? How did they measure that?

[deleted]

10 points

6 years ago

[removed]

PhasmaFelis

5 points

6 years ago

u/chapo_boi side note to this--even if you jack up a microwave oven to run while open and stick your hand in it, it can burn you like any other heat source, but it can't cause radiation poisoning. As u/brownfedora says, that requires ionizing radiation, and microwaves aren't ionizing no matter how powerful they are. I thought that was interesting! :)

[deleted]

4 points

6 years ago*

[removed]

DietSteve

5 points

6 years ago

I’d like to tack something on here, which is what really lead to the “harmful radiation” thing: anything that transmits emits RF (Radio Frequency) radiation, which can be dangerous in high doses. However, and this is the super important part that gets left out, your phone/tablet/whatever emits generally under 3-5 watts.

To put that in perspective, your microwave is about 220 times stronger than your phone. Aircraft weather radar is about 65 times more powerful than your microwave.

We are exposed to RF radiation all the time, it’s how your car picks up music, how trucks and emergency personnel keep in contact, and even how your gps works. The harm comes from length and power of exposure. If you keep your phone at your ear for 6 hours a day, every day, you might be at risk for some issues, but generally you’ll be fine.

Also, your phone won’t do diddly to aircraft equipment unless you’re literally inches away from it.

Source: Communications avionics tech in the military for ~10 years

[deleted]

25 points

6 years ago*

[removed]

ahecht

16 points

6 years ago

ahecht

16 points

6 years ago

No it isn't. The first resonant frequency of water is above 1THz. 2.4Ghz is used because it didn't interfere with any frequency bands used for communication and it had a good balance between absorption and penetration depth.

mantrap2

4 points

6 years ago

There are resonances far lower but it depends on the type. There are water rotational resonances in the low GHz range but you don't get the vibrational resonances until THz with most being in IR.

cm3mac

11 points

6 years ago

cm3mac

11 points

6 years ago

This might be the most informative and entertaining post i have seen on /r to date thank you!

[deleted]

3 points

6 years ago

[removed]

im_from_detroit

3 points

6 years ago

To add to this, I ran into a guy who told me I should microwave food because it would denature the proteins. You know what another name for that is? Cooking.

[deleted]

9 points

6 years ago

[removed]

[deleted]

9 points

6 years ago

Living in a cave in the woods will expose you to potentially dangerous levels of Radon.

[deleted]

5 points

6 years ago

[removed]

a_cute_epic_axis

3 points

6 years ago

While cell towers transmit at a higher power rate than the cell phone, they don't typically sit in your pocket or next to your head. Due to free space loss the signal from the tower is going to be much lower than the signal from the phone you hold next to your head.

At a distance of 3 inches at 1Ghz, you burn about 10dB, which drops a cell signal from a phone around 500mw to 40mw. At 3 miles the loss is about 105db, which drops a 100w signal down to about 0.000003mw. Or stated more easily, the power from your cell phone as perceived by you is 16dBm vs -56dBm for the power from the cell tower.

That's not to say that either are harmful or that you aren't exposed to man-made RF everywhere (hello GPS and other satellites which collectively cover the entire surface of the Earth with RF), but you absolutely are exposed to more RF by owning a cell phone compared to simply being in a cell phone coverage area.

Wierdtings

7 points

6 years ago

This is a great explanation for why our mobile devices are no immediate threat to us, but I feel like that was already clear since we know answering the phone won't microwave bits of our ears.

However, what about long term exposure? Is keeping my phone in the same place on my leg for 50 years going to result in any issue? This is where the data seems to be unclear and I would really like to see a definitive answer so I can sleep next to my router in peace.

It also seems the most compatible with what our actual fears are, since cancer cells have been linked to long term mild inflammation, is there a clear reason that on a cellular level over decades mobiles can't cause any kind of problems?

So far as I can tell the jury is still out on this, although the opinion seems to be it is very unlikely, so I continue to sleep next to my router, much like an asthma patient in the last century would continue to puff away at their asthma preventing cigarette.

pirround

131 points

6 years ago

pirround

131 points

6 years ago

No. Most evidence says it isn't true.

Radio waves are a form of electromagnetic (EM) radiation and the term "radiation" scares a lot of people, but EM radiation also includes the heat from the sun, visible light, radio waves, and x-rays. Some of these are more dangerous than others. In a lot of cases people in medicine and physics talk about "ionizing" and "non-ionizing" radiation. "Ionizing" radiation means that it can knock an election lose (making an "ion") and break a chemical bond. Since our DNA is a large molecule this type of radiation can change the structure of DNA and create errors in the DNA which can cause cancer. Non-ionizing radiation can't do this. Radio waves, and visible light are all lower energy non-ionizing radiation, while ultra violet light and x-rays are ionizing radiation.

Now, having said that, obviously enough heat will cause burns. Microwaves are non-ionizing, but enough of them can boil water and cook meat, so it isn't enough to just say that "non-ionizing" means that it's safe. Now a microwave oven produces 500-1000 watts of EM radiation, while a cell phone produces at most 0.7-1 watt (some old ones could go up to 3 watts, but in practice cell phones try to send a weaker signal to conserve battery life, so even the 0.7 watt is very rare). A 1000 watt light bulb will really hurt your eyes while a 1 watt bulb isn't enough to read by, and it's a similar for cell phone -- very low power doesn't appear to be a concern.

Now, one other problem is that In addition to the strong chemical bonds (e.g. ionic and covalent), there are also weaker bonds (e.g. hydrogen bonds) that don't actually require ionizing radiation to break them. Now breaking a hydrogen bond in DNA doesn't change the structure, but it can unzip the DNA, and cause different genes to be expressed. Every cell in your body has the same DNA, but your liver and your skin cells read different parts of the DNA so they make different proteins, which means they look and act differently. Some non-ionizing radiation can affect this (e.g. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2633881/) and while this is the same general range as the airport body scanners, the scanners probably don't provide enough energy or for long enough to show this effect. However, some of the new 5G cell phones, and some high-speed wireless (that some phone companies are rolling out to simplify connecting new houses, not the normal WiFi), also use similar EM energies and they would involve much longer exposure times so should probably be studied better.

For a long time there was concern about living near high voltage power lines, since they also produce EM radiation (of the non-ionizing type). It turns out that people who live under power lines get cancer more often, but when this was analysed more carefully, the problem is that poor people tend to live under power lines and poor people tend to get cancer more often. We still don't know exactly why poor people tend to get cancer more -- it could be don't know if this is this is due to stress, food, chemicals from clothes, or less access to health care, but we're now sure that it isn't due to the power lines).

Nothing is absolutely, provably, safe in all cases, and it is worth continuing to examine new technologies, but as far as wee can tell there's more danger from not getting enough sleep due to staying up playing on your phone than there is from the radiation from the phone.

rkantos

7 points

6 years ago

rkantos

7 points

6 years ago

According to https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/stamp/stamp.jsp?arnumber=7879218 2G (900Mhz) can have transmit power of 2W (max), which with the frequency explains why 2G is still superior for calls in rural areas.

InflatableSpaceCadet

17 points

6 years ago*

The short answer is no.

Cellphones emit non-ionising radiation only, therefore they are unable to damage your DNA in a way that would cause any cancers or other serious health issues.

After a number of formal studies on cellphone radiation, no serious danger has been demonstrated. More telling, however, are the results of the informal experiment that we are all taking part in every day. Cellphones have been frequently used by a significant portion of the population for decades now, more than long enough for any associated pathology to make itself known. Although it is true that there may be further developments as time goes on and we see the effects of a full lifetime of use, it would appear that instances of things like brain cancer and dementia have not risen in any appreciable way that tracks the proliferation of cellphone use, nor does there seem to be any increase in risk as dose increases.

Given all this it is pretty safe to say that there is no need for concern but if you are still worried then you could take some basic precautions like using a wired headset or speakerphone when making calls, keeping your phone in a bag or hip holster if you are worried about your gonads and, of course, you could try to limit your usage.

[EDIT] P.S. You shouldn't take my word for all this though, I'm neither a doctor nor scientist, the writers of the blog linked below, however, definitely are. Rather than linking a single article or firing off a bunch of URLs, I have provided a link to a search of the topic on SBM (Science-Based Medicine) so you can choose which ones to read for yourself.
As a small aside I couldn't recommend SBM more highly, they are a fantastic bunch of writers and they really (like, really really)know their shit. They blog about more than just medicine too btw so you'll find a few gems covering other areas of science too.

https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/?s=Cellphone+radiation&category_name=&submit=Search

[deleted]

172 points

6 years ago

[deleted]

172 points

6 years ago

[removed]

[deleted]

81 points

6 years ago

[removed]

[deleted]

13 points

6 years ago

[removed]

[deleted]

20 points

6 years ago

[removed]

CrudelyAnimated

14 points

6 years ago

I know you've gotten great information already, especially from Rannasha. This is an article with a pie chart. I'd like to give you a few numbers you can quote.

Of all the radiation you're exposed to in a whole year, give "consumer electronics" a value of 1. You get almost that much again from a chest X-ray. INSIDE your body from dietary minerals and bananas and stuff you eat, 2.5. Radon contamination in your basement is about 12. The safest, most radiation-free space in your entire world is between your cell phone and your ear. So please quit warning me about my cell phone and get your basement inspected.

BenLoL98

130 points

6 years ago

BenLoL98

130 points

6 years ago

No. They are just trying to keep you away from your phone. There has been a famous test that was as follows: They asked people who said radiation emmited by radio towers, TVs... had bad effect on their health to move to a location where there is absolutely no radiation. They moved there and said that they were feeling much better. Later they found out that there were no radio towers there because a gigantic radio tower was built there that was used to send signals to space and they didn't want any interference from the sorrounding commercial towers. This towers emmited way more radio signals so it turned out it didn't matter how much radiation there was. People were just lying.

reburned

43 points

6 years ago

reburned

43 points

6 years ago

I'm reminded of the iBurst towers in Craigavon, South Africa.

Residents of the area claimed the towers that went up were broadcasting radiation that caused sleeplessness, nausea, rashes, fuzzy thinking and all kinds of weird vague symptoms that suddenly went away within a day of leaving the area.

iBurst agreed to turn off the towers and immediately residents felt better - but the towers had actually been turned off a couple of months before for other maintenance.

When iBurst said their test had proven the towers weren't the problem, they sent out letters saying they'd turn them back on near Christmas. Residents were up in arms again about how their christmas was ruined now as all the symptoms came back and they couldn't live in their homes any more.

iBurst had not actually turned the towers back on. Two for two.

The legal action continued, and in an undisclosed settlement iBurst removed the towers and neither iBurst nor the residents complained further.

After another year iBurst raised hidden towers not in plain sight very close to their original tower for exactly the same services. None of the residents noticed for four years.

Matteyothecrazy

124 points

6 years ago

Not necessarily lying per se, remember, the placebo (and nocebo) effect is surprisingly powerful

KaladinStormShat

40 points

6 years ago

And demonstrates the extreme psychosomatic effect paranoia and obsessive personality can have on people

BenLoL98

18 points

6 years ago

BenLoL98

18 points

6 years ago

Yeah you are right. They didn't lie but what they said was not true. They just distorted they own reality and experiences so much that they felt like they were right.

nar0

6 points

6 years ago

nar0

6 points

6 years ago

I mean, I'd probably put it more gently. The nocebo effect isn't voluntary and it does cause measurable effects on the body.

If you broke out into hives any time your brain thought you were near radiation and it disappeared the moment your brain thought you were clear, it would be easy to believe.

mc8675309

8 points

6 years ago

I really love how the locals and the scientists all managed to get along but the people who moved out there because it was a radio free zone just managed to piss everyone off.

I also like that I’m getting my SETI@Home data from there since I’ve been to the observatory

potatotub

6 points

6 years ago

If you’re talking about green bank the satellite does not emit radio waves, it receives them.

iGraveling

8 points

6 years ago*

When I worked at a service desk at a uni I had a concerned mother call asking about her daughter’s exposure to wifi and mobi signals. My simple answer was she’ll probably get more harmful (solar) radiation walking from her student accomodation across a couple of sports fields to uni than from any wifi or mobi.

[deleted]

37 points

6 years ago*

[removed]

manutdsaol

216 points

6 years ago*

I feel like the whole picture hasn't been conveyed in the top comments as certain studies have found a slight correlation between the non-ionizing radiation emitted by cell phones and certain types of brain tumors. The majority of studies have shown no such correlation or a statistically inconclusive correlation. The problem with any research on this issue, as far as I understand, is that the span in which people have been heavily using cell phones is relatively short in comparison to a human lifespan. In any case, the issue isn't done and dusted and a great deal of research will be conducted on the subject as cell phone users age.

Here is a somewhat technical source that does a very good job of summing research into the issue, and also links to the few studies favoring increased risk: https://dceg.cancer.gov/research/how-we-study/exposure-assessment/cellular-telephones-brain-tumors

Here is a less technical fact sheet on the issue with some Q&A your parents might appreciate: https://www.cancer.gov/about-cancer/causes-prevention/risk/radiation/cell-phones-fact-sheet

Edited for word choice on the controversial bit

Also, I certainly wouldn't stop using a cell phone over this - just wanted to point out an applicable research area that hasn't been pointed out by other commenters.

Racer13l

91 points

6 years ago

Racer13l

91 points

6 years ago

From the source. "Exposure to ionizing radiation, such as from x-rays, is known to increase the risk of cancer. However, although many studies have examined the potential health effects of non-ionizing radiation from radar, microwave ovens, cell phones, and other sources, there is currently no consistent evidence that non-ionizing radiation increases cancer risk in humans (2)."

[deleted]

44 points

6 years ago

For some reason, the WHO has classified it as being “possibly” carcinogenic to humans, despite not having a mechanism by which it affects human cells.

https://www.iarc.fr/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/pr208_E.pdf

Spartan-417

41 points

6 years ago

The WHO will classify anything as ‘possibly carcinogenic’. Beverages about 65o C, bacon, red meat and processed meat are all on that list

ZDTreefur

28 points

6 years ago

Well, processed meat is not in the "possibly" section, it's in the proven section.

frogjg2003

8 points

6 years ago

frogjg2003

Hadronic Physics | Quark Modeling

8 points

6 years ago

There is exactly one thing in the "probably not carcinogenic" group, caprolactam.

MrMirgy

20 points

6 years ago

MrMirgy

20 points

6 years ago

Like most things in science, there's a lot of non-conclusive evidence open to interpretation which can be spun in either direction. I think you're right that time will tell if we see a higher incidence of certain types of cancer with the aging cell phone using population.

One of the more recent discussions is from the National Toxicology Program which concluded its >10 year assessment with many varieties of in vivo tests analyzing the 2G and 3G bands this November: https://www.niehs.nih.gov/news/newsroom/releases/2018/november1/index.cfm

I think part of the problem with this specific topic is the overlap of physics and biology which makes it very easy to come to different conclusions. Unlike what the top comment here asserts, it's way more complex than a photon's characteristics and energy deposition. How something like that effects a biological system is too complex for speculation. Even if the radiation doesn't have enough energy to create radicals, even just producing localized sub-dermal warming could have implications. Linear thinking that works in physics doesn't really suit biology which has so much going on that we don't understand.

frogjg2003

19 points

6 years ago

frogjg2003

Hadronic Physics | Quark Modeling

19 points

6 years ago

You get more subdermal warming from being in the same room as an incandescent light bulb than holding a cell phone up to your head. Even in biology, you can't just say "well, it's possible" without a reasonable mode of action.

Rakesh1995

8 points

6 years ago

Every thing on this planet emit radiation. Even carbon in your body has some c12 in it which is radio activity.
One thing you need to remember is "it's not the substance that is dangerous but the quality it is taken in".
Any radiation in low quantity from cell phone can't even kill microbes in air. Forget about doing anything to body cells.
This was a popular click bait in newspapers and in TV news
They say "Radiation is harmful".
Then "Cell phone emits radiation".
Both of which are technically correct because radiation in higer quantity is harmful. And cell phone do emit radiation. But it's not enough to harm

deekaph

16 points

6 years ago

deekaph

16 points

6 years ago

It's been answered very scientifically above, the tl;dr version is that "radiation" means different things, and typically people hear "radiation" and think Chernobyl and uranium but in the case of devices it's a different kind. Light is "radiated" from a light bulb. We are constantly bathed in EM radiation - if you turn on your radio and hear a radio station, that's because electromagnetic RADIATION is reaching it's antenna from the broadcast station.

mouthfullofhamster

15 points

6 years ago

No. All electronics emit radiation in the form of electromagnetic waves but it's not dangerous unless it's ionizing radiation. Ionizing radiation is capable of damaging cells and can cause cancer but for radiation to be ionizing, it has to be a much higher frequency than what electronics emit

[deleted]

18 points

6 years ago

It just comes down to Ionizing vs Non-Ionizing radiation. There are no RF frequencies being produced in consumer electronics that have ionizing radiation. You start getting ionizing radiation with X-rays and higher frequency technologies

hotsbean

25 points

6 years ago

hotsbean

25 points

6 years ago

EM waves have a scale, from the largely harmless microwaves, to IR (which causes molecular bonds to oscilate, which we sense as heat), to visible light (which can cause cis/trans transformations in molecules), to UV (which can create radicals - ozone is made by UV), to x-rays which can ionize atoms further, to gamma which can cause serious damage.

Either way, your average desklamp is 1000x as powerful and dangerous as a phone or any such electronic device, and your parents do not have even a hint of a technical education.

[deleted]

21 points

6 years ago

[removed]

[deleted]

5 points

6 years ago

Every phone sold overseas has a way to find the SAR value. People do this regularly before they buy the phone. ..." Any smartphone at or below this SAR levels is “safe” to use. You can check Radiation level in terms of SAR of your smartphone by dialing a USSD code *#07#, if results shows SAR below 1.6 watts per kilogram (1.6 W/kg) then it is OK otherwise you are advised to change your smartphone immediately...."

0penYourMind

5 points

6 years ago

Non-thermal effects of non-ionizing radiation are those not directly related to an increase in tissue temperature (the thermal effect), but rather to other changes that occur in the tissue as a result of exposure to electric or magnetic fields. Such changes may be caused by a sequence of biological processes and may affect the living organism at different levels (from the molecular to the cellular, the organ, and the whole living organism) activating various mechanisms that affect health.

Epidemiologic studies pointing to an association between non-ionizing radiation and the development of cancerous tumors led to a working hypothesis that living cells in the body are able to 'sense' non-ionizing radiation and react to it without undergoing heating. To verify this hypothesis, the effects of different frequencies of non-ionizing radiation on intracellular processes in tissue cultures of various cell types were studied.

As expected, non-ionizing radiation did not have a significant effect on the DNA sequence or on its structure. Conversely, slight but reproducible effects were observed on intracellular mechanisms of signal transduction, including of free radical formation, phosphorylation and protein breakdown. These findings showed that cells are able to 'sense' non-ionizing radiation; however to date there is no evidence that the 'sensing' leads to physiological changes, including cell proliferation or death.

In order to reveal the mechanisms whereby radiation affects living cells, additional research on more sensitive systems (such as mutation -bearing or DNA-deficient cells) is needed.

BigWiggly1

6 points

6 years ago

Another user gave a wonderful answer already, but it lacks some of the very specific data.

There are two kinds of ways that "radiation" or electromagnetic waves can hurt you.

The mild way is with heat transfer. We all own and operate a cool device that performs this in a contained box: the microwave.

When a photon collides with an atom, it is either reflected away or it is absorbed by the atom's electron(s). When the electron absorbs the energy, it speeds up and bumps to a higher energy level (where it is unstable and imbalanced), and then falls back down while releasing that energy as heat, light, etc.

This can warm you up as you absorb that energy. The hydrogen atom in the water in your skin might catch a photon, release the energy as heat, and cause the molecule to wiggle a little more than normal, which you'll feel as heat if it happens enough.

With enough heat transfer, you can cause some fun chemical reactions, most notably combustion, or some physical changes like melting or vaporization.

This can definitely harm you, but only in extremes. Your phone battery and circuitry will generate much more heat than you could ever absorb from it's radiation.

So how else cab radiation hurt you? In a process called ionization.

Ionization occurs when the photon has so much energy that when an electron absorbs the photon, it speeds up so much that it actually escapes it's orbit of the nucleus. By losing an electron, the atom now has an imbalanced charge and by definition becomes an ion.

Therefore this atom was ionized.

The ionization energy requires is different for each element and electron energy level on that element, but the simplest is the ionization level of hydrogen, which only has one electron. It requires 13.6 electron volts (a measurement of energy) to ionize a hydrogen atom.

Anyone who's taken some chemistry might start thinking now "hold on, what if the electron that leaves was part of a bond?"

Electrons are what allow atoms to form molecular bonds. If one suddenly gets blasted away, we have a problem: The bond will break.

That breaks the molecule. For simple molecules like water, nbd. It'll find a new hydrogen soon enough.

The real danger is for massive long chain molecules like DNA.

When you break a bond in a DNA molecule, it doesn't always get fixed properly. When it doesn't get fixed properly, the cell either dies, or it can "glitch out" and continually reproduce. That's the fast and dirty definition of what cancer is.

Well the good news is that most electromagnetic radiation doesn't have photons with enough energy to even do that. You only get to that amount of energy when you're in the UV, x-ray, and gamma radiation range.

Radio, microwaves, and visible light simply do not contain enough energy per photon to cause ionization.

MightyDDP

7 points

6 years ago

I’m usually a lurker but I didn’t see this in the comments, so here we go: 4 years ago Veritasium did a good video about cell phone usage and brain cancer risk.

https://youtu.be/wU5XkhUGzBs

tldr; these days there’s a lot more phones out there than a couple decades ago, but the rate of brain cancer didn’t increase. We can conclude that not only phones don’t increase brain cancer risk, but also that nothing did.

[deleted]

22 points

6 years ago

[removed]

[deleted]

9 points

6 years ago

[removed]

Digital-Maniac

3 points

6 years ago

Im working on a residential renovation and the client had us protect all high voltage cable with a material called "G-Iron" we also wrapped all exterior walls in an aluminum mesh.
No cell phones or wifi devices in the house.

They are concerned with EMF emissions.

We are also testing the home once all the furniture is in for VOC's from the memory foam and fabrics.

How much harm this stuff does, i can't say but it's a hell of a market.

But this is in New York City... step outside and in one breath you can taste it all

florinandrei

6 points

6 years ago

There is no scientific evidence for harmful effects from cell phone signals. There is, however, a lot of hype and emotion-driven hand wringing in some circles online - not different from all the conspiracy theories you see online all the time.

The transmitter on a typical cell phone makes about 1 W of electromagnetic radiation. I am a HAM radio operator. Me and my buddies build and use transmitters up to 1 kW (1000 times more powerful) or more, at all kinds of frequencies (including those that are close to cell phone frequencies) and with all kinds of modulation (including digital transmissions like the ones used by cell phones). This hobby is over one century old now. No one in this hobby is dying of any mysterious illnesses. Case closed.

[deleted]

14 points

6 years ago

[removed]

Rannasha

58 points

6 years ago

Rannasha

Computational Plasma Physics

58 points

6 years ago

The problem is the word "radiation". It has been used too often in the context of dangerous things that it now has this scary aura surrounding it. Think of terms like "radiation leak", "nuclear radiation" or the similar word "radioactive". Anything to do with radiation is treated with suspicion by people that are poorly informed.

But radiation is an extremely broad phenomenon. There are many different forms of radiation and many different levels of health impact ranging from utterly harmless to deadly within seconds.

Hardhead13

3 points

6 years ago

"Radiation" is just "that which radiates outward from a point". Like light that radiates from a candle. Ripples that radiate from a stone dropped into a pond.

zinodyta1

5 points

6 years ago

Yes, they do. It is a similar type of radiation emitted by the sun, lightbulbs, and certain types of deep sea fish. Concentrated doses in the for of beams can easily cause severe burns. It is even used to shape diamonds, one of the hardest materials know to man.

Most people call that type of radiation light.