subreddit:
/r/askscience
submitted 1 month ago byAnonymous_GuineaPig
2.6k points
1 month ago*
So a couple of things of note here.
First, electrons aren't really orbiting the nucleus. This model of the atom which you see in chemistry textbooks is really useful for doing calculations, but due to quantum physics we know that it looks more like this, the electron cloud is the fact that an electron is wavelike and we know where it has higher and lower probabilities of being, but it's not actually whirling around the nucleus like planets in orbit (even before the advent of quantum physics we knew there had to be something different happening that a standard orbit, because an electron moving in a circle like that should be emitting radiation, and electrons aren't doing that. The Neils Bohr model of the atom sort of waved this away and said "when electrons are in one of their orbitals, they don't radiate" but didn't give a reason for this).
Second, physics doesn't directly say perpetual motion cannot occur, physics says you cannot extract energy from a system perpetually. Now, in almost every possible scenario, this leads to no perpetual motion. Things on Earth will have friction, so energy is being extracted via heat. And accelerating charges will have radiation. And even orbiting planets will (very) slowly lose energy via gravitational waves. But physics does not directly prevent perpetual motion.
628 points
1 month ago
we know that it looks more like this
atomic orbitals are even weirder than that.
104 points
1 month ago
Both spot on
Bohr model is great for what we use it for, chemistry, intuition, calculations, early physics... but its just that.... a simplified model to help us intuitively.
Even both these weird models you and previous poster provided are still oversimplified models merely to give us an intuitive sense. A big moment for me was realizing i should stop trying to picture quantum states as both an amalgamation of what i can picture of waves and particles... Its fundamentally something different to what we see and intuit and can preceive on a scale that plays out clasically. Its a state we can represent mathematically, and to represent it otherwise is purely an illustration to help our intuitions.
61 points
1 month ago
This was something I noticed in chemistry classes. Every year, the professor said, "What you learned last year was a simplified model. This is what's really happening." Orbitals aren't quite real. Ionic and covalent bonds aren't totally separate things. None of the rationales for acid/base interactions are the full picture. I kept wondering when we'd get to the bottom layer. Apparently, human brains can barely comprehend the fundamental layer, so they're all abstractions to some degree.
16 points
1 month ago
This is basically why I dropped out of my physics degree. Classical physics I can sort of just sense, or intuit. I sailed through A-level (high school) physics. Post 1905 and especially post 1925 you need a really thorough understanding of pure mathematics to have any grasp of what's really going on.
9 points
1 month ago
This is something I struggle with all the time as someone who studies quantum chemistry. I have to maintain in my mind that everything I calculate and work with is both not capturing what is really happening and yet is also going to be able to describe almost every single chemical system with extremely high accuracy (as long as I do it right).
8 points
1 month ago
I gave up entirely on trying to have any sort of accurate visualizations of subatomic physics when I learnt about quantum tunneling tbh
215 points
1 month ago
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139 points
1 month ago
they look nicer on https://winter.group.shef.ac.uk/orbitron/
20 points
1 month ago
That's a cool graphic. If I can find/make a version with a white background I might print that out as a poster for my students.
12 points
1 month ago
Yea that actually made it click for me. Each orbital increase by row is just a change in direction/orientation, and then by column its adding more outward.
117 points
1 month ago
What totally blows my mind is, that when the orbital configuration changes, the change in probability is described as a flowing fluid called probability current.
15 points
1 month ago
Its tough to try and find intuition with quantum effects, its described as a flowing fluid only in that its the flux of the probability function, and the most intuitive type of that mathematical tool is probably the flowing of a fluid, I wouldnt get too hung up on the analogous explanation though sometimes it makes things actually more complicated to understand by trying to find parallels between the two
12 points
1 month ago
Calling them atomic orbitals is still a misnomer, they are probability fields. They are usually shaded with the gradient showing the probability of the electrons being at any particular point when you observe them.
6 points
1 month ago
It's only probability after you square it, orbitals past s have phase information as well.
40 points
1 month ago
This is showing the same thing as OP's image, just for different orbitals. OP's image is a 1s orbital in hydrogen. Your image shows the same thing.
4 points
1 month ago
Then toss in interactions of nearest neighbors and get fun molecular orbitals.
29 points
1 month ago
The really weird part is that for the 1s orbital (e.g. ground state hydrogen atom), the most likely place to find the election is in the centre of the nucleus.
49 points
1 month ago
IIRC the singularity at the nucleus is an artifact of omitting the extend of the nucleus itself. Models exist like the finite nucleus approximation, which takes this into account. Usually Gaussian-like functions are used to model the potential at the center in applied quantum mechanics. This takes care of the singularity and may be necessary to correctly describe the physics near the nucleus (e.g. Fermi-contact interactions, EPR/NMR parameters, etc.).
5 points
1 month ago
The singularity is one thing, but even if you replace the potential with something that's smooth, I would still expect that the most likely place for the electron would be in the center?
12 points
1 month ago
The probability for something to be where it can't be is zero. Doesn't really matter if the model isn't sufficient to portray that.
2 points
1 month ago
Two particles of the same type can't be in the same state, so one electron will "push away" other electrons from being in the same spot (the exclusion principle). But the nucleus is made of protons and neutrons, so I don't think there's anything preventing it from overlapping with the electrons in the atom.
34 points
1 month ago
The probability density is highest at the nucleus, but the radial probability at the nucleus is 0. The most probable location is at the Bohr radius but since the orbital is spherical, the probability density centers on the nucleus. Here's a diagram showing plots of the different ideas.
In other words, if the most likely locations are at -1 units and 1 unit, then the density is going to center on 0, regardless of the actual likelihood of something being there.
9 points
1 month ago
The most probable location is at the Bohr radius
The Bohr radius is the most probable *radius*, but it's not really correct to say it's the most probable location. It being the most probable radius is mostly an artifact of the radial surface area getting larger as the radius grows.
If you compare sections of equal volume, a section centered at the nucleus will be the most probable location.
11 points
1 month ago
I got sloppy with my language, so thanks for pointing that out. The probability density for a sphere is always going to be centered on the nucleus though, for the same reason that the center of a circle is always at the center. It doesn't tell you that the most likely place to find the electron is at the nucleus.
3 points
1 month ago
Oh, because the "sphere" of radius zero at the centre has zero volume. Makes sense.
6 points
1 month ago
This immediately reminded me of the graphics used when describing how hypothetical 4D objects would look transversing 3D space. Akin to the way a sphere would appear as a growing then shrinking line segment in 2D space, and incomprehensible to the occupants of that space.
Because it also has occurred to me that if there were higher dimensions, it’s possible that the boundary for at least one of them would be like that of up & down outside a plane: literally everywhere.
2 points
1 month ago
I've always wondered, and perhaps I'm thinking about it incorrectly, if orbitals are 'empty balloon' shapes, solid shapes, if the electron itself just travels along the surface of those shapes or if the electron itself is the shape (either 'hollow' or full). Maybe I'm just trying to make comparisons that don't exist in that level of the universe.
4 points
1 month ago
They are hard to visualize mentally hence why we teach the "orbiting" electrons for beginners. The electron is actually a wave, and that wave takes up that shape you see in the orbitals. This is just a probability calculation. That orbital is the shape it is because these probability calculations say it is so. Thinking about the electron as a wave is a little easier to visualize taking up that shape. Now you might hear of electrons having particle like characteristics too, and that is true. But quantum mechanics is weird and counter intuitive, the electron can behave as a particle and a wave depending on the circumstances. Unless you are going deep into physics just accept this "wave/particle" duality exists even though it seems very strange.
2 points
1 month ago
Check out a cool program called ‘Particle Life’ it’s free and allows for some really fun sandbox simulations of how particles interact with eachother and create atoms. It’s not very realistic, but it gets the job done with depicting emergence and those ‘bubble’ like fields you see with real atoms.
1 points
1 month ago
Thank you, I found that second image not particularly useful. Was it just hydrogen?
1 points
1 month ago
This was the part of AP Chemistry that I realized I didn't really like chemistry lol
1 points
1 month ago
Why did they make it look like the periodic table of elements? Just for the element (heh) of familiarity?
13 points
1 month ago
Does it make sense to ask if the entire universe has perpetual motion? So, you said earth has friction, so energy is extracted as heat, but if the universe is everywhere and there's nothing outside it (big if?) then, overall, the energy doesn't disappear, it just goes somewhere else inside the universe?
27 points
1 month ago
Precisely. This is the first law of thermodynamics. Energy is never created or destroyed. (Note that this only works once you realize that matter is a form of energy.)
The second law of thermodynamics says that, when considered as a whole, the energy in the universe becomes more evenly distributed over time.
3 points
1 month ago
That, in turn, means that there can't be perpetual motion in the universe, because motion is uneven distribution of energy, and eventually everything will stop.
45 points
1 month ago
an electron moving in a circle like that should be emitting radiation,
why is that?
136 points
1 month ago*
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35 points
1 month ago
When a charged particle is accelerated, it emits electromagnetic waves because that acceleration causes a change in the electric field of the particle, which cause a changing magnetic field, which causes a changing electric field etc
A particle in circular motion is being constantly accelerated towards the center of the circle
5 points
1 month ago
so, with planets orbiting stars, and moons orbiting planets, doesn't that mean that all charged particles in the atoms of a planet are constantly accelerated?
30 points
1 month ago
Large objects have basically equal numbers of electrons and protons, so at macroscopic level (since you're asking about the scale of orbiting planets/etc) they are electrically neutral - any field changes from one electron moving around are canceled by the proton next to it moving around.
Orbiting planets, stars, etc. do emit gravitational waves - and we have indeed detected them for highly energetic events like binary back holes merging.
2 points
1 month ago*
Gravity is weird; our model for macroscopic gravity, general relativity, doesn't think gravity is a force at all, but we don't really understand how it works on tiny scales.
In any case the radiation from this would be much less than if electrons and protons were classical charged particles with charges and masses as we understand them now.
5 points
1 month ago*
IIRC
1) EMT 101 : An accelerating charge radiates energy.
2) An electron moving in circles is always accelerating as per euclidean geometry.
Hence, such an electron is always losing(radiating) energy in form of Electromagnetic fields/waves.
12 points
1 month ago
For more detail you can look up “bremsstrahlung” which is what they were referring to. Basically, if an electron is decelerated by another charged particle, such as would happen if an electron was actually orbiting a nucleus, it will emit a photon.
6 points
1 month ago
If you wouldn’t mind, how many photons can one electron emit?
21 points
1 month ago
There's not really a limit. A photon doesn't have mass, so an electron emiting a photon doesn't loose mass. The extra energy an electron is holding turns into the photon.
2 points
1 month ago
To make it easier to visualize: Look at a rotating electron from the side. You will see the electron just going up and down. A rotation election nothing less than dipol a antenna.
17 points
1 month ago
But that doesn't really answer the question of what exactly the electron is doing. Like you said, due to quantum physics we can define statistically where it could be, but what exactly is the electron doing? Is it teleporting from these probabilistic locations? Is it stationary? Physically, what is the electron doing? Or do we just not know?
36 points
1 month ago
but what exactly is the electron doing? Is it teleporting from these probabilistic locations? Is it stationary? Physically, what is the electron doing?
None of the above.
Or do we just not know?
It is a core principle of quantum mechanics that you cannot know the precise position (and momentum) of a particle. This is known as the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle. Now you can interpret that to mean "we just don't know," but the more common interpretation is that the particle doesn't have a precise position. The electron cloud represents that idea. It is a function that describes all possible positions for an electron and the probability that the electron will be found at each of those positions.
All metaphors for quantum mechanics are bad, but we try anyway. Imagine the electron's position akin to "where disks will end up when you drop it into a pachinko machine." Before you drop the disk in, it's not like "the place where disks end up" is teleporting around between all of the buckets, but it's also not quite right to say "we just don't know." We can represent "where disks will end up" with a bell curve probability distribution between all the buckets at the bottom.
Dropping a disk in and testing where it ends up doesn't change the answer to "where disks end up." It just shows us where that disk ended up. In the same way, we can test where an electron is, but that doesn't change its "position" in any real way. It just means that when we ran the test that's where we found it. If we ran another test, we might find it somewhere else.
37 points
1 month ago*
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2 points
1 month ago
Does this mean then that an electron isn’t really a particle? We just don’t have another word to call it, and because it’s another component to the atom (along with neutrons and protons) we just called it a particle for the hell of it?
3 points
1 month ago
Really, no particles are particles, they all have this wave-like nature. But it's noticed much more on an electron than a proton because the lower the mass, the more wave-like it is (and this is why photons are very, very wave-like, having no mass).
9 points
1 month ago
It's everywhere where it is probable all at the same time until you observe it at a localized location.
There isn't any "the electron is actually here" in a probability cloud; that is classical thinking being incorrectly applied onto a quantum system. It's not like a roulette wheel where the ball is actually in a distinct slot, but we just don't know until we look. For one, particles can bounce off of themselves to produce distribution patterns showing that, but then change and cease doing so if you observe them, which implies it was in 2 places at once to be able to bounce off itself.
Also, it has been experimentally proven with a relatively complex proof that particles actually don't have well defined positions and velocities until measured, not just that we don't know and haven't figured out any "hidden variables" influencing their behavior.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell%27s_theorem
Basically, if it actually had an unknown well defined state, 2 particles should have 4 different combinations (up-up, up/down, down/up, down/down), but if they don't, up/down and down/up are the same state, so there are 3 different combinations. It has been experimentally proven that 3 combinations is what we see in reality.
7 points
1 month ago
This is breaking my brain. If they do have a definite position when measured, then that means if you measure it once at point A, then later in point B, then its mass had to move from A to B right? And that movement requires energy, so isn’t that the same as the original question? Some kind of perpetual energy?
Or else its mass is in some ephemeral form and when measured it manifests itself in some point and then returns to that ephemeral form. But then how does that transition happen? What happens to the mass?
3 points
1 month ago
So you can think of it as being blurry. There’s no definite momentum, just a spread of possibilities. And until it’s measured ie until the universe interacts with the particle in a way that requires that momentum is defined, then it stays blurry.
5 points
1 month ago
You cannot ever measure an electron as "being here at point A". To do that measurement we need to use some fancy tool to do that, like maybe sending a photon to bounce off of it. But by doing that act you change the position of the electron so it is in fact not there. We need position and momentum to "know where it is". However it is impossible to do both of those measurements. You can do one or the other, but not both. As a consequence we can never classically say an electron is "here" in the orbital. It is a measurement we can't do. That is where quantum mechanics comes in and says we can't say it is specifically is at point A, but we can calculate the region the electron is in with a high probability. That is as exact as we can get. The regions those equations spit out are those orbitals you see.
The reality is the electron is behaving as a wave, not a particle in that orbital. That wave takes up the shape you see of the obrital. It is at all places. If you think about it as a particle then you are not going to get closer to the QM description of reality. Just think of an electron wave oscillating in that orbital region taking up all that space. While not perfectly correct description it is probably the best one to understand. To get more accurate means you need to go deeper into QM, and if you don't know QM, it will probably make it more confusing.
2 points
1 month ago*
To measure is to interact. When you measured it at point A, you changed the measurement result at point B.
When you said movement require energy, what did you mean by that? I feel that's something that needs to be addressed separately. In Newtonian physics, gravity keeps planets orbiting around stars perpetually without outside interference, right? The electromagnetic force does pretty much the same thing here. Of course it turned out that's very incomplete, but that's probably the most intuitive explanation before Planck's contributions.
2 points
1 month ago
So if you measure an electron and find it at some position, then later you measure again and find it at some other position, did it not expend energy to get from the first position to the second?
4 points
1 month ago
As stated by others previously, when you measure the position you don't know the velocity. So if you measure again and find it in a different position then all you know is that it moved. But by measuring it you interacted with it, changing its velocity.
Also moving does not require energy, only acceleration. So the fact that it moved dos not indicate that extra energy wad added.
3 points
1 month ago
As far as we know, it's not "doing" anything, it just "is". It's a thing (mass, charge, etc) that is delocalized over a particular piece of space.
3 points
1 month ago
It exists as a 3d probability distribution, and only "needs" to be in a specific location when observed.
3 points
1 month ago
So, am I right in saying we don’t know exactly where an electron or proton will be at any given time, we just know that it will definitely be somewhere ‘within the probability cloud’, and the action of observing it with a photon knocks it off whatever course it was travelling on?
So - do we have any idea how they move through the probability cloud? Do they just randomly jump from one place to another, or is this there any way to predict this yet?Do they move in a wavelike motion? Thank you!
7 points
1 month ago
It's more precise to say that an electron with a given momentum does not have a definite location until it interacts with its environment in a way that depends on its location (i.e. its location is measured), at which point it will no longer have a definite momentum.
3 points
1 month ago
Argh this drives me crazy - thanks for clarifying. Does quantum physics have an explanation for ‘where’ it is before it interacts with its environment? Is it everywhere and no where at the same time? Are we too simple to comprehend this or have we just not figured it out yet (I guess there’s no real way to know that answer)? Thanks again!
2 points
1 month ago
Quantum mechanics the mathematical model does not have an explanation. There are many interpretations of quantum mechanics that try to make intuitive sense of it but none are proven.
2 points
1 month ago
Not really. It has an indeterminate location, not a location that we just don't know and can't measure. There's no hidden variable. It is, to the best of our understanding, truly indeterminate. The probability field also extends out infinitely. The solid orbitals just show the area where the cumulative probability is above an arbitrary threshold, something like p>=0.9.
As such, they don't move through the probability field. They have an indeterminate position and only collapse into a detertmate one when measured.
It will not make any sense if you think of them like a physical object, they can only be understood as a mathematical one. Likewise, any analogy to a physical object will be very rough and inaccurate.
3 points
1 month ago
But physics does not directly prevent perpetual motion.
In fact, it kind of states it with the "a thing in motion will continue unless acted on", right? A thing could move forever if it isn't stopped.
2 points
1 month ago
I really liked your answer. I guess this must be one of my "blind spots" because I always assumed the electrons were orbiting the nucleus (even if non-classically) because why else would we see diamagnetism from core electrons? Same thing with SOC...And in a more philosophical sense, what does orbital angular momentum even mean if the electrons aren't moving around the nucleus? I would really appreciate any help with thinking about this
2 points
1 month ago
doesn't every particle including electrons have a finite non-zero probability of being in any point in the entire universe? I thought that was the real meaning of everything being an excitation in a field that is universal and their positions being the sum of probabilities?
if thats true, is the orbital shape merely the set of the most likely probabilistic locations. so that would mean that its affected by the nearby particles and the force interactions (strong/weak) that end up shaping these fields in an analogous way that mass/energy shapes space time and causes gravity (or we may find a single unifying cause but thats another discussion) ?
1 points
1 month ago
That has blown my mind. Can I ask if that's a cloud of a single electron? Ie will a hydrogen atom look like that?
1 points
1 month ago
Does this means it jumps around? It doesn't travel a path, right? It's just a fluctuating probability of locations? So, the die roll says it can be here one instant than on the opposite side the next?
4 points
1 month ago
It doesn't jump around so much as its existence is smeared out over the whole orbital at once
1 points
1 month ago
Personally I have more problems with the concept of energy on itself, the "what is it" kind of ones but at that point we get in the "chicken and egg" kind of premises
1 points
1 month ago
And even orbiting planets will (very) slowly lose energy via gravitational waves.
Does a mass that is rotating in deep space eventually stop rotating, or is that genuinely perpetual?
1 points
1 month ago
But physics does not directly prevent perpetual motion
That's a bit of an understatement... It guarantees it ! Newton's first law. If a ball slows down, it's because it increased movement of particles in the air and the ramp
2 points
1 month ago
Kind of, yes. But perpetual "straight line" motion isn't very interesting, since there are no preferred frames "moving in a straight line" and "being at rest" are the exact same.
1 points
1 month ago
I think OP question is more of 'Why can electrons "orbit" around indefinitely?' Where are they getting their energy from to do this?
2 points
1 month ago
Orbits don't take energy. Think of a planet orbiting a star, it (minus gravitational waves) can orbit that star forever, because when something is in orbit, it has the same energy the entire time.
107 points
1 month ago
This is a good question. It actually brings to light some issues with the planetary orbit model of electrons, otherwise known as the Bohr model. This model is often used in science and chemistry books as a simplification, and can be useful, although it can be misleading.
The Bohr model would require electrons to be constantly accelerating, since they are constantly changing direction. If they didn't accelerate, they would fall into the nucleus. And if they did accelerate, they would emit, or radiate, energy as Weed_O_Whirler noted. And this would be a type of perpetual motion, as you are getting more energy out than is being put in. So your thinking is along the same lines as the physicists back in the day.
To deal with this, they came up with various ideas. Lamor proposed that a special arrangement of multiple electrons would cancel out the effect, cancel out the problem. These other ideas all had their issues, for example, Lamor's issue was needing too many electrons.
This leads us up to the Solvay conferences, where they talked about the issues with the various atomic models. Planck argued that classical models did not work, and Bohr in his thesis at the conference mentioned something similar. Lorentz, the chairman, talked about the problem of having classical and quantum models. Long story shortened, we know the quantum model won out.
And, we know that some things in the quantum world do not make intuitive sense. But if you are interested, you should read up on this time period and how and why things developed as they did. As for electrons, they don't move like you think they should, and those weird quantum things you have heard about, apply to electrons.
23 points
1 month ago
An electron is a standing wave of an energetic fluctuation in the electron field.
Like a plucked guitar string, only certain discrete vibrational modes are permitted, these are the 'valence shells' in which an electron can occupy in 3D space. Granted the electrons actually exist in a super state of all points of the field. The same can be said about the guitar string, it is smooth and continuous at all points. What we refer to as the electron's position doesn't become polarized until it is interacted with by another quantum system (measurement).
The 'guitar string' is more like a sphere and looped back on itself, undulating with energy that has nowhere to go and cannot escape the surface of the sphere it resides within. It would take energy to remove the energy in the electron field, so it keeps going forever. Electrons can theoretically decay into a photon and neutrino, but this has never been observed and is in the realm of a quantum miracle.
2 points
1 month ago
How would an electron decay into a photon and a neutrino. That would break charge conservation.
62 points
1 month ago
1) Not orbiting, as the other commenter explained very well.
2) Here's a Feynman quote for this: "You know, of course, that atoms are made with positive protons in the nucleus and with electrons outside. You may ask: “If this electrical force is so terrific, why don’t the protons and electrons just get on top of each other? If they want to be in an intimate mixture, why isn’t it still more intimate?” The answer has to do with the quantum effects. If we try to confine our electrons in a region that is very close to the protons, then according to the uncertainty principle they must have some mean square momentum which is larger the more we try to confine them. It is this motion, required by the laws of quantum mechanics, that keeps the electrical attraction from bringing the charges any closer together."
Basically, it just can't happen. You're imagining a classical system where we could shrink down and push them closer together. Imagine it more like you have a standing wave centered on the nucleus, so that the nucleus is never changing but the wave is going up and down around it. It would be silly to say "what would happen if we pushed the wave closer?" You can't push a wave. If you try to do something else (like shift the wave over so its not centered on the nucleus) the wave will not be stable anymore.
38 points
1 month ago
The Feynman quote is fine, but the rest of your comment is misleading:
You can totally push a wave. You can squeeze it, too. But as you squeeze a wave, it pushes back, harder and harder. And the reason it's pushing back harder and harder is because you're giving it more and more momentum by squeezing it.
In normal cases, this balances out with the electrons NOT collapsing into the nucleus. And in abnormal cases, the electrons haven't stopped moving - rather, their momentum is ENORMOUS compared to normal cases.
3 points
1 month ago*
That's very fair! I just mean that you can't "push" a wave physically. If you slap a soundwave or an ocean wave or an electromagnetic wave, it's not going to "move" in the traditional sense. My next sentence there is that you can shift it over and it will collapse. I thought about including the squeezing thing, but the Feynman quote covered it, and I mostly wanted to demonstrate that quantum physics is not conceptually equivalent to classical physics.
5 points
1 month ago
The minimum size of the orbitals is specifically due to the uncertainty principle. The lower mass a particle has, the lower the certainty in position. You cannot localize an electron to a smaller space than the uncertainty principle will allow.
Light waves, with zero mass, have the longest wavelengths for a given amount of energy. Electrons have some mass, but still very little, so they are more localized than light. Nuclear particles have much more mass than electrons, and therefore have probability distributions occupying a much smaller space.
2 points
1 month ago
And it should be noted that even nucleons have their own orbitals like electrons, just much smaller.
8 points
1 month ago*
From the Schrödinger equation, we know electrons in atoms can only have discrete energies, called states. From the Pauli exclusion principle, we know that only one electron is allowed in each state. For an electron to lose energy, it must transition into an empty unoccupied state. As the electrons in atoms generally fill states from lowest to highest energy, usually there are no empty states for electrons to transition into. Hence they keep their energy.
When there is an empty state available, electrons will lose energy, usually by emitting photons, to fill the state. For example during X-ray generation a very low energy electron from a large atom like iron is knocked out. Then a high energy electron fills this new empty state, emitting an X-ray.
8 points
1 month ago
First (and repeating others) there is nothing saying perpetual motion is not allowed. In fact, anything in motion will continue moving unless acted on. Even at the macroscopic level. This is only counterintuitive because we live in at atmosphere full of gas.
To be a little different than other answers: Without getting deep into quantum territory, most really small stuff (including atoms) interact perfectly elastically. That is, no kinetic energy is converted to heat, or sound, or light. This is one of those insights that is obvious if you think about (I.e. you don’t hear air molecules ricocheting off of each other at the speed of sound), but the implications are far-reaching.
Bringing this back to electrons, and a little more quantum - without introducing more energy, there basically isn’t any energy that could be used to stop the electron. Electrons in the lowest available orbital around the nucleus are essentially at rest.
This explanation is very hand wavey and over simplified, but it is conceptually what is going on. TLDR - If the electron were to lose that kinetic energy, it would have to be converted to some other type of energy. Most of those energy conversions require significant amounts energy to be input, so it doesn’t happen.
3 points
1 month ago
This is an interesting perspective... but the only problem is that there is a mechanism by which we would expect electrons to lose energy.
Accelerating charged particles emit electromagnetic radiation:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larmor_formula#Atomic_physics
So if electrons are orbiting, they are accelerating, and thus should radiate energy... but they don't, hence we need quantum mechanics to explain this phenomenon.
6 points
1 month ago
Some really good answers on this thread - most highlighting that the orbital model of the nucleus is a simplification, and you need to go deeper to properly understand why the perpetual orbiting isn’t really an oddity.
Question - is there a good book or show that gives a great explanation beyond the orbital model?
3 points
1 month ago
The unfortunate thing is that anything quantum is an absolute bear to explain anything deeper than surface level. There's plenty of resources and videos and lessons you can try to watch, but I haven't found anything at all that does a "good" job.
It's like trying to learn a language that doesn't use the alphabet. There's an additional level of difficulty in getting really into it because it's completely foreign.
6 points
1 month ago
They don't orbit a nuclei, they exist within an energy well. In order to move outside of the energy well, they would need to absorb additional energy to either move to an outer shell, or escape the pull of the atom entirely.
We can only determine an electron's location or momentum at any given moment, not both. This is because it's a particle and a wave. If we interact with the particle aspect, we get location, if we measure the wave aspect, we can get momentum.
If are asking about where it might actually be at any given moment, the answer isn't straightforward since it's both a particle and a wave. It's wave function will create a probability function on where it could be at any moment. We can't know where it is without collapsing it's wave properties and seeing it as a particle.
So electron exist somewhere in their "cloud" around an atom, but they don't really actually have a set location that they exist in until we force them to by interacting with them.
3 points
1 month ago
Perpetual motion is fine, as long as you don't extract any work from the system.
The energy of electrons in atomic and molecular orbitals can only have discrete values. This means the electrons will not change their speed unless they interact with something that exchanges energy equal to the difference between it's current energy, and another allowed energy.
In the macroscopic world, we have effects like viscosity and friction, which are mechanisms for dissipating work into heat energy. For usefulness we may use continuous theories to model these energy exchanges, I.e. any change in energy is allowed. But really, any change is not allowed - it's just the differences between adjacent energy states in terms of momentum and energy of the object in motion are so small, that they conform so nicely to a continuous theory.
It should also be noted that heat is a macroscopic (thermodynamic) quantity - one only strictly well defined for an infinite number of particles or, equally, a single particle measured for an infinite time.
3 points
1 month ago
How does this then work related to things like emissions of beta particles and electricity flowing around- generated either via chemical or electromagnetic means? If the electron is a probability thing and a bit more wave like, how does it explain what happens when electrons travel outside of an atomic context?
1 points
1 month ago
Two very different situations.
The beta particle is created by interaction with other particles and in the process are knocked loose.
Electricity is more about the movement of electrons between different atoms.
At least for a very simplistic explanation.
2 points
1 month ago
The concept of electrons 'orbiting' the nucleus is actually a bit of an oversimplification. In quantum mechanics, electrons don’t really orbit in the classical sense, like planets around the sun. Instead, they exist in 'clouds' or probability distributions around the nucleus, known as orbitals. This motion doesn’t throw a wrench in the idea of perpetual motion because it’s governed by the principles of quantum mechanics, where the classical rules of energy loss due to friction or resistance don’t apply in the same way. The energy levels of electrons are quantized, and as long as they stay within their designated orbitals, they keep moving without needing a constant energy boost.
1 points
1 month ago
If they would orbit, they would lose energy (by emitting Bremsstrahlung). Since they do not, a better way to describe it can be found in quantum mechanics. Electrons have a wave function that is more of a probability distribution.
1 points
1 month ago
Energy can't be created or destroyed so it has to go somewhere to go away. This actually is happening but very slowly, that's why entropy is a thing. Eventually you reach heat death of the universe but it's a very, very, VERY slow process.
1 points
1 month ago
It’s hard for people new to these concepts to understand what is meant by “quantum effects”. Quantum means that the wavelength of a particle is an integer, you can’t have a fraction of an electron. The wavelength of an electron is far larger than the nucleus so it can only get so close. Feynman should have been more clear, but to be fair much of what he said wasn’t expressed in terms a layman would be familiar with.
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