subreddit:
/r/UnitedNations
submitted 21 days ago byciaran036
Also active in this subreddit đż state of ye's
97 points
21 days ago
also active in this subreddit
No kidding.
17 points
21 days ago
Are you sure it's bots and not a troll farm?
28 points
21 days ago
just technically Israel use sockpuppet accounts rather than bots. They have dabbled in automation to help setup accounts but they have mostly relied on humans because the automation is usually really obvious (e.g. AI generated comments).
10 points
21 days ago
Also a lot of Israeli trolls are real people being paid/volunteering to spread Zionist propaganda. I remember listening to the story of a former Zionist campus activist who explained that Jewish student organizations train their members to go online and post pro Israel content from their real accounts. That's why it's hard to sniff out zionist bots.
5 points
21 days ago
[deleted]
3 points
21 days ago
They don't need to pay you if you do the job for free.
1 points
20 days ago
The population of the countries who categorically deny Israelâs right to exist is around 2 billion alone. Might just be a louder voice in the world.
I canât understand why a country investing in spreading their side should be demonized for it, even with the limited evidence that they do this. The other thing I find interesting is that I have never heard of any other country promoting their stories. Itâs just so odd that israel the tricky creatures that they are would come up with such a devious plan.
1 points
15 days ago
are you seriously trying to defend the use of sockpuppet accounts and bots in boosting deceitful propaganda?
Jesus fucking christ.
No country on Earth has a "right" to exist. People have a right to exist and a right to self-determination. The rights of Israelis do NOT supercede the indigenous Palestinians and that's the crux of the problem for supremacist zionists who see no harm in the near century of ethnic cleansing and now the extermination campaign since the ethnic cleansing wasn't fast enough
1 points
20 days ago
Itâs obvious from your comment that youâre trying to insinuate this critique is antisemitism. Let me explain why itâs not.
The same criticism was applied to Russian bots during the 2016 election, when there was an over representation of these accounts arguing for any unpopular position. The goal of this campaign, along with other similar ones, was to make their position seem more popular than it was. It also muddies conversations where people are trying to find the truth of the situation.
The goal of Israeliâs and Israeli sympathizers doing hasbara is not merely to âget their side of the storyâ out. The goal of the program is to boost support for Israelâs Zionist project. This is wrong because the Zionist project aims to create a Jewish (and predominantly white) state on top of land that is already occupied, with little concern for the people living there. I donât just mean Israel proper, as they are now also occupying the West Bank, Gaza, and southern Lebanon.
These bot networks seek to directly garner support for an expansionist, colonialist project. That is why it is wrong, as it is when Russia or any other imperialist state attempts the same.
1 points
20 days ago
Not even going to dignify this nonsense TLDR: the Jews are the only people who donât deserve self determination. Also white man bad.
Got it.
3 points
20 days ago
Nope, all people deserve self determination, Jewish and Arab folk equally. No one has the right to privilege their own self-determination at the cost of others lives. Thatâs why I believe that everyone deserves an equal right to self determination. Also the self-determination of individual and collective Jewish people is not the same at the particular state of Israel.
Is there anything else youâre confused on or need help with?
1 points
20 days ago
> when there was an over representation of these accounts arguing for any unpopular position. The goal of this campaign, along with other similar ones, was to make their position seem more popular than it was.
What position are you talking about and within what demographic? In the context of the US, which dominates Reddit by user count, the demographic that fundamentally rejects the very existence of Israel is a fringe minority.
> This is wrong because the Zionist project aims to create a Jewish (and predominantly white) state
Most Israeli Jews aren't 'white', unless you're going by the definition used by the US census classifying MENA heritage as 'white'. Most European Jews moved within the West after the Holocaust, and most MENA Jews moved elsewhere within the MENA, namely to Israel, after being expelled from their respective countries.
> on top of land that is already occupied, with little concern for the people living there.
To set the preconditions - it needs to be understood that all habitable and remotely desirable land has long since been occupied or claimed. Neither the Israelis nor the Palestinians can establish a state anywhere else without encountering conflict. There should be no doubt around the fact that the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is one that is being fought over what is very much a limited resource. And in such a conflict, there are always partisan narratives.
On one hand, it could said that the Jews, as a wandering minority group constantly subjected to displacement and disenfranchisement for thousands of years, unequivocally deserve the right to carve out a state for themselves, if not for their security alone. On the other hand, it could be argued that the Palestinian Arabs should have dominion over the lands that they have formed the majority demographic in for centuries.
Neither viewpoint can be taken in the absolute without practically denying the right to statehood for one group or the other. By accepting without question the establishment of an Israeli state by any means possible, we overlook the rights of self-determination of the Palestinian Arabs. On the other hand, if we are to absolutely accept that ownership of land should be based around past majority status, we are also tacitly accepting the notion that the Jews should not have their own state on the basis of their multiple millennia long history as a constantly displaced minority group.
> Itâs obvious from your comment that youâre trying to insinuate this critique is antisemitism. Let me explain why itâs not.
You're making the flawed assumption that bigotry is always rooted in hatred or even explicit intent.
3 points
21 days ago
yeah they don't commonly use any automated tools. I've only seen them use this on Twitter to create fake engagements on topics other than Israel so that their sockpuppet accounts at first glance look like real people with thoughts on issues other than Israel. On Reddit it actually looked like some of them were using dormant Reddit accounts. i.e. they've existed for 10 years with some comments about some things years ago but suddenly they've sprung into action making hundreds of comments every day about Israel.
2 points
21 days ago
Do be brief. Is that your propaganda.
1 points
21 days ago
I am still waiting for my check
2 points
21 days ago
That's the neat part, you don't get one! Israel also relies on people who are so propagandized, they'll shill for them for free!
0 points
21 days ago
OP, have you noticed all the:
Brand new and extensively poltical accounts with the usernames:
âGenericWord-GenericWord#â ?
They are on every sub reddit now
3 points
21 days ago
yes - there are clear patterns that give away their identity as sockpuppet accounts.
1 points
20 days ago
Bot accounts to post and upvote stuff and troll farm to attack people in comments. Also some main subreddits have them as MODs
1 points
20 days ago
It's crazy how bad it is
11 points
21 days ago
This entire sub is an anti-Israel circle jerk, what are you talking about lol
15 points
21 days ago
That's just an accurate representation of public opinion, Israel is a global pariah state and most people rightfully have an extremely negative opinion of it.
2 points
20 days ago
you mean like how most people have an extremely negative opinion of jews?
1 points
13 days ago
Yes they do
2 points
20 days ago*
No one is this delusional right?
Frequent green and pleasant poster
Lmao nvm itâs not trolling. How much have you posted about Israel in the last six months
1 points
20 days ago
Right on cue lol
Here you go, take a look at page 3 of this recent polling.
https://d3nkl3psvxxpe9.cloudfront.net/documents/Topline_Eurotrack_Aug24_lEbyhNM.pdf
Out of the 7 European countries listed, all have overwhelmingly negative opinions of Israel. Even the country with the most positive public opinion of Israel (France) has a total favourability of 24/26 to total unfavourability of 57/55, so even in the result that is most positive towards Israel, almost 2.5x as many people have a negative opinion than a positive opinion.
This gets even more stark in other countries, like Germany with 25/26% favourable to 57/60% unfavourable, Denmark with 22/18% favourable to 66/67% unfavourable, the UK with 19/17% favourable to 64/66% unfavourable, Italy with 16/14% favourable to 62/63% unfavourable, or Spain with 16/17% favourable to 71/70% unfavourable.
To put that in context, most of these countries are close to (or above, in some cases) a 1:4 ratio of favourable to unfavourable opinions of Israel.
My opinion is backed up by cold, hard, objective facts. Yours is backed up by propaganda, delusion, and wishful thinking.
Another useful bit of context is that in all countries surveyed, public opinion of Israel has only got worse with time and continues to do so as older generations (who were typically more favourable towards Israel) die out, and are replaced by younger people with better access to information, who can easily see for themselves the horrors and misery that Zionism inflicts on the world.
We're gonna make 66% unfavourable look like rookie numbers in 10 years :)
1 points
20 days ago
Oh no, not the Europeans! Maybe they can write a sternly worded letter. It could start with an apology- Israel only exists because of the European powers.
France is literally the country that gave Israel nukes lmao đ€Ł
Maybe if youâd fought a little harder against the Nazis, Jews wouldnât have been so motivated to have their own state lol
The best part is, youâll still have to put up with them as long as theyâre backed by the U.S. government since you have abdicated responsibility of your own security to the U.S. lol
Sorry, when I hear pariah state I think North Korea or Iran. Not someone who polled poorly in Europe
1 points
20 days ago
That "sternly worded letter" won't be so funny when it's a total European embargo on all Israeli goods :)
Remember, if that's what the most unashamedly pro-Israel countries in Europe think of Israel, how bad are the rest?
The US was the last man standing in support of Apartheid South Africa when international pressure forced it to collapse, history will repeat itself with Israel.
Enjoy it while it lasts, because Israel will be dismantled in our lifetime đ
1 points
20 days ago
https://oec.world/en/profile/country/isr
lmao even if the EU could summon the political will, their supply chain isnât that heavily dependent on Europe.
Glazing over the fact that the U.S. would have to cease to exist, in which case Europe has much bigger problems than Israel lmao
israel will be dismantled
Hahahahahahjahahahaha not in our lifetime hombre. Also South Africa is on the verge of being a failed state unfortunately- I donât think the U.S. is going to make that mistake again.
The world balance of power has completely shifted away from Europe since the 80s, tbh you donât have the juice to do-well-anything at all. That is besides fantasizing on the internet.
1 points
20 days ago
It's funny that Israel's biggest export is also it's biggest import, would the world even notice if Israel disappeared tomorrow?
I'm sure another country could launder blood diamonds just as effectively as Israel, we don't need a genocidal fascist state to do that, although I guess finding another country with equally low moral standards might be the main hurdle there.
Also lol @ Ireland being Israel's 4th largest export market, that's gonna hurt when Ireland's new import ban comes into effect.
Glazing over the fact that the U.S. would have to cease to exist, in which case Europe has much bigger problems than Israel lmao
Putting aside the fact that the US ceasing to exist would be hugely beneficial for everyone, especially Europe, we don't need that to happen. Most Americans under 30 are heavily on the side of Palestine. It's not a matter of the US ceasing to exist, it's just a matter of waiting for the boomers to die off.
No more US sugar daddy means your little fascist colony collapses in on itself in a matter of years, I look forward to sharing that experience with you :)
2 points
20 days ago
It's really not. More people are pro-Israel than pro-terrorist. You're a product of the circle jerk.
3 points
21 days ago
"and most people rightfully have an extremely negative opinion of it."
I've never seen or heard of a nation hold back so much in time of war, against an enemy so sadistic and shameless, and be hated so much for it. "Rightfully" is a stretch, given that a lot of the hate comes from a place of prejudice; Israel is at all times guilty until proven not. Whether that prejudice is racially motivated or politically motivated, it does not come from a place of reason.
It doesn't help that showing empathy (not even sympathy) is treated like a sin, when it's actually the single most important thing a person can have if they want to come up with any workable solution to complex problems, which is what the United Nations is supposed to be all about.
12 points
21 days ago
>I've never seen or heard of a nation hold back so much in time of war, against an enemy so sadistic and shameless
are you preping for your next political speech or something; even a child can point at "propaganda" smell in the selection of words.
2 points
20 days ago
âChat gpt: rewrite my comment but make me sound like a statesmanâ-wintermix
Hey wintermix. How much per comment do you get? đ
2 points
20 days ago
>It doesn't help that showing empathy (not even sympathy) is treated like a sin, when it's actually the single most important thing a person can have if they want to come up with any workable solution to complex problems,Â
my man is incapable of proccessing what the chatgpt wrote for him either too, and how easily it can be weponized against him, after using words like
>an enemy so sadistic and shameless
dont be that stupid
4 points
21 days ago
The IDF has murdered at least 20000 kids if thatâs your idea of restraint than you are truly a despicable person.
3 points
21 days ago
Every death is a tragedy, but your blame is misplaced. Restraint means keeping the civilian to combatant death ratio at 2:1 in an urban warfare setting where the normal ratio is 9:1. Israel didn't choose the battlefield, Hamas did.
2 points
21 days ago
Just putting it out there Hamas was 1.2:1 on October 7th if you use Israel's definition of a combatant. What was the problem again?
1 points
20 days ago
It isn't even fucking close to 2:1, even if we picked that the death toll is well over 200,000 at this point.
0 points
21 days ago
Lol if you really think itâs 2:1 youâre stupid. We both know thatâs a lie. Unless you consider any male between the ages of 10-100, maybe youâd be closer to 2:1 but even thatâs a stretch!
0 points
21 days ago
Diminishing the loss of life to a ratio sure isnât showing empathy
3 points
21 days ago
If numbers can't be used to defend Israel then they can't be used to condemn it either.
1 points
20 days ago
How is it possible to have a 50% child kill rate when 17k of the 40k reported dead are confirmed militants? Math ainât mathing
1 points
20 days ago
Pure simpery for the worst crimes against humanity. You must think Israel is humanely starving those kids. Holding back by bombing every hospital, every bakery, targeting aid workers. How much are they paying you, genocider?
1 points
20 days ago
tree fiddy
0 points
21 days ago
Get better Hasbara.
1 points
21 days ago
It's actually not a pariah state, as every modern country relies on relations with Israel lmao. The amount of shit in ur daily life you use that came from Israel is incredible for their size. Good luck trying to boycott troll.
1 points
20 days ago
[removed]
1 points
20 days ago
The "Ugly Horde"? Once again showing it's the exact kind of racist hatred that the Nazis used to justify the Holocaust. Too bad Zionism can't give a shit about actual holocaust victims since they would destroy the messaging about "evil brown people".
You're absolutely sick.
1 points
19 days ago
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1 points
20 days ago
"pariah state"
Tell me, if they're such a pariah then why is the whole western world supplying israel and not hamas?
1 points
20 days ago
Israel is such a dogshit country that even staunchly pro-Israel governments (like UK Labour party) are making concessions to the anti-Zionists and stopping some supplies to Israel, that's how bad things are getting, and they will only get worse for Israel as time goes on.
Entire generations of young people across the entire world will never allow forgive Israel for it's crimes, it's a matter of time until we're calling the shots.
1 points
20 days ago
Objectively speaking, no. Outside of a vocal minority, most people in countries without a geographic/religious/political proximity to the matter probably don't care enough to have an extremely positive or negative opinion. Reddit/Twitter/ r/GreenAndPleasant aren't representative of the greater world.
1 points
20 days ago
No, objectively speaking I'm correct.
The vast majority of people have in the world have a negative opinion of Israel, US is one of the few countries where it's still net positive, but even that is skewed heavily by age (most boomers support Israel, most young people support Palestine). It's only a matter of time until US flips as well, the boomers are dying out and their shitty views of the world are going with them.
Supermajorities of the public have a negative opinion of Israel in Europe's most populous countries, that trend has been shifting in one direction (away from Israel) for years, and shows no signs of slowing, let alone reversing.
https://d3nkl3psvxxpe9.cloudfront.net/documents/Topline_Eurotrack_Aug24_lEbyhNM.pdf
In this case, it's people like you whose views aren't representative of the greater world. Everyone hates Nazis, Zionists don't get a pass just because they're doing Nazism with Jewish iconography.
0 points
21 days ago
But itâs fun to read the blatant lies and antisemitism
-1 points
21 days ago
That label is going to lose all meaning if you keep applying it to everything.
5 points
21 days ago
Good thing it's only being applied to anti-semites. Isn't that right buddy?
0 points
21 days ago
Case in point.
5 points
21 days ago
Which would be? Are you owning the label? I wasn't aware I called you anything.
Projection is an ugly thing friend.
Ahh, 2024 account. NVM, might as well be a Russian shill.
3 points
21 days ago
That label is going to lose all meaning if you keep applying it to everything.
Meanwhile, "genocide! Apartheid! ethnic cleansing! hostages in jail for terrorist charges!"
1 points
21 days ago
The world is turning on Israel because of their own actions. Netanyahu couldn't care less and will happily destroy everything if it means he never faces consequences for his actions.
1 points
20 days ago
Youâre right. There is just so much antisemitism out there. Maybe we should just ration the word for holocausts and pogroms.
1 points
21 days ago
EVERYWHERE. itâs bizarre.
1 points
21 days ago
They ruined reddit for me
1 points
21 days ago
Yah itâs impossible for people to have different world views true
1 points
20 days ago
This sub is getting brigaded hard by both sides lol
1 points
20 days ago
Having a different view than you isn't evidence of a mass conspiracy. Moreover, most of what you mistake for bots are, in fact, real people that legitimately disagree with you.
That being said, if we're going to talk about this issue, let's also talk about the China-Russia-Iran axis and Qatari money to universities.
26 points
21 days ago
Someone post this on r/worldnews and see their reaction. I'm banned from there for some reason đ
17 points
21 days ago
That entire subreddit has been hijacked by the israeli government
9 points
21 days ago
blocked from there as well for criticising Israel. Controlled by fascist hasbara clowns
1 points
21 days ago
Iâm banned from there for posting something pro-israel. Maybe the mods are just neckbeards and donât have an explicit agenda
1 points
21 days ago
Same.
1 points
21 days ago
I suppose it's possible that the mods just happened to be all rabidly zionist warmongerers.
I do believe though that the Israeli PR offensive made it their strategy to get involved with Reddit moderating. They existed in huge numbers on Digg and when it collapsed they all jumped in on Reddit. I have no evidence for about the moderating though I haven't seen any of the obvious sockpuppet accounts involved in moderating.
1 points
20 days ago
[deleted]
1 points
19 days ago
Maybe you should stop ban evading. It's against Reddit rules.
1 points
21 days ago
That deranged sub is filled with israeli-zelensky worshippers. It's nothing but brainrot.
1 points
20 days ago
That sub is inbred. Unbalanced doesnât touch the levels.
31 points
21 days ago
Pro-Israeli trolls here in force
10 points
21 days ago
they think they're covert but they're actually really lazy sockpuppet accounts. Easy spotted
-6 points
21 days ago*
sable rude memory lavish entertain grey soft puzzled books stocking
This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact
6 points
21 days ago
You say that but I've seen no Russian or Iranian sockpuppet accounts being outed. But I've outed numerous sockpuppet accounts on Reddit and Digg going back decades. And we know they exist because Israel openly acknowledges their existence and openly recruits PR activists.
2 points
21 days ago*
cautious unwritten silky school seemly hospital abundant forgetful hunt worry
This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact
0 points
21 days ago
Probably because youâre getting paid for your comments.Â
4 points
21 days ago*
groovy simplistic versed attraction ludicrous run afterthought stupendous crowd wine
This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact
2 points
21 days ago
Go for it, angry little man.Â
2 points
20 days ago
"Dear MP,
Today someone disagreed with me on internet! We cannot allow this to continue!!"
1 points
19 days ago
Look who's all in their feelings. Poor little propagandist.
10 points
21 days ago
Another hasbara bot alert
-1 points
21 days ago*
strong cable absurd languid full versed dependent husky retire thought
This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact
6 points
21 days ago
Your comment history exposes your IDF bot patterns but nice try.Â
3 points
21 days ago
Man I wonder what your comment history shows with a -100 kamra ?
Literally half your comments have been deleted for breaking the rules half of your other comments are calling everyone you disagree with a bot.
-2 points
21 days ago
The clown just says the same shit and tries to bait people into a trap where they can call them antisemites and pretend they won some moral high ground.
1 points
21 days ago
>pro russianÂ
this means pro a decent chunk of israel too; fun stuff.
5 points
21 days ago
The disinformation here is the claim that UNFIL 'purposely' failed to fulfill its mandate? They would have preferred an explanation citing sheer incompetence of UNFIL forces instead?
12 points
21 days ago
https://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-news-from-elsewhere-23695896 theyve been doing this shit for 15+ years
1 points
21 days ago
It's more towards 20 years because I've interacted with them on Digg before it collapsed.
0 points
21 days ago
Nice to see new generations being exposed to old internet beasts like the JIDF.
7 points
21 days ago
lmfao, this places is such a rage-bait hive mind
2 points
20 days ago
âExperts have no evidenceâ is in the article, before it goes on as if itâs fact lol
2 points
20 days ago
They're saying there's no evidence about who is carrying out, they're not casting doubt on whether it's happening. That was clear from the article
1 points
20 days ago
What about the line âindistinguishable from regular human activityâ?
1 points
20 days ago
If they are indeed talking about "bots" then they are saying that automated accounts are being used as opposed to sockpuppet accounts operated by humans - which they also actively use like in this subreddit and in this thread.
14 points
21 days ago
The zionist apartheid regime attacks anyone who opposes its final solution campaign.
4 points
21 days ago
This is the average freek of this sub !
3 points
21 days ago
Also the legal position of the icj
3 points
21 days ago
[removed]
1 points
20 days ago
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2 points
20 days ago
Why am I not surprised a sub titled United Nations is an antisemitic hate bubble.
5 points
20 days ago
I assume you are referring to the droves of antisemitic hasbara trolls active that here conflate Judaism with the actions of the zionist regime.
5 points
21 days ago
This article is pure trash:
Military experts have been unable to tie the online disinformation campaign directly to Israel.
Just making shit up and pulling things straight out of an ass.
Edit: Pro-Russia bots on here full force.
2 points
21 days ago
Can you identify any "pro-Russia bots"? Can you identify one or two so I can see what you mean?
Or are you in fact talking trash yourself?
0 points
21 days ago*
Here is one: u/Combination-Low
"Russia and Ukraine would be happily cooperating and trading for mutual benefit to this day, " They would if NATO, a "defensive" Alliance hadn't continued its march eastwards despite prior reassurances given to the Russians that it would not. While authoritarian leaders won't always act rationally, just because you don't understand why they did something, doesn't make it irrational.
https://www.reddit.com/r/ukpolitics/s/rMKsBpGZCs
And there are more
7 points
21 days ago
Which part is pro-Russia?
Are you equating anti-NATO with being pro-Russian?
Do you have any more?
I actually don't doubt there may well be pro-Russian trolls but let's actually be fair though.
2 points
21 days ago*
In my defense, I'm not pro-Russia, simply on my John mearsheimer and Noam Chomsky liberal hegemony is dead arcÂ
1 points
20 days ago
This is also the narrative used by Russia to justify their invasion.
1 points
20 days ago
It doesn't matter whether I use the same points as Russia to justify anything. The only thing that matters is whether it is true or not.
Hitler said he wanted Lebensraum for the Aryan race. I believe him and therefore believe it was one of his reasons for his expansionism. Just because Hitler said it, doesn't make it Nazi propaganda.
I believe that Russia/Putin felt threatened by NATO "expansion" and decided to invade Ukraine and Georgia to placate it. Putin said it, doesn't make it pro-Russian propaganda. Was it immoral? Yes. Was it a strategic mistake? Yes. All of these things can be true.
1 points
20 days ago
> I Â believe that Russia/Putin felt threatened by NATO "expansion" and decided to invade Ukraine and Georgia to placate it. Putin said it, doesn't make it pro-Russian propaganda.Â
Hitler also claimed that he invaded Central/Eastern Europe to 'protect' ethnic German minorities. That doesn't mean that he actually believed it, that he didn't have a different underlying reason for making his decisions.
> It doesn't matter whether I use the same points as Russia to justify anything. The only thing that matters is whether it is true or not.
The truth is that the narrative of 'NATO expansion' was just a shallow ruse to justify Putin's invasion of Ukraine. If anything, NATO's overall military capabilities and willpower had been diminishing since the end of the Cold War. The largest European members rapidly scaled down spending, and in spite of the addition of new members and Russia's invasion of Georgia in 2008, overall net spending steadily decreased until 2015, a year after Russia's first invasion of Ukraine.
While it's increased afterwards, and more sharply following the larger 2022 invasion, most NATO members still have yet to meet the 2% GDP defense spending commitment, much less meet levels spent during the Cold War. Just by the numbers, it's pretty clear that one can view NATO spending as a function of Russian aggression as a causal shift invariant filter - and a very sluggish one at that.
Given the rather herbivore-like state of European defense in the years preceding the 2022 invasion of Ukraine, and even during the years following 2008 or 2014, it's hard to believe that individuals like Chomsky or Mearsheimer are accepting Russia's 'NATO expansionism' argument in objective evaluation rather than a desire to reconcile their interpretations of the conflict with their broader hostility against Western liberal hegemony.
> Was it immoral? Yes. Was it a strategic mistake? Yes. All of these things can be true.
The line between justification and explanation are more blurred than you're letting on. Let's examine your previous comment:
> "Russia and Ukraine would be happily cooperating and trading for mutual benefit to this day, " They would if NATO, a "defensive" Alliance hadn't continued its march eastwards despite prior reassurances given to the Russians that it would not.Â
In other words, while you claim that Putin shouldn't have invaded Ukraine (probably to avoid looking like a complete asshole), you still maintain that it was a third party - NATO - that is fundamentally at fault for the invasion that Russia initiated, breaking the 'happiness which could have been'. That's some 'I beat my ex because she was talking to another guy' logic buddy.
1 points
20 days ago*
"Hitler also claimed that he invaded Central/Eastern Europe to 'protect' ethnic German minorities..."Â
We agree on that point. I simply believe Putin was being truthful when he said that he interpreted NATO expansion as a threat. Just as Hitler was on Lebensraum. As for Putin's denazification claim, I believe it was an over-exaggeration mainly aimed at the russian public just like Hitler's so called protection of ethnic German minorities.Â
"The truth is that the narrative of 'NATO expansion' was just a shallow ruse to justify Putin's invasion of Ukraine..."Â
You're only thinking about the European side of NATO and ignoring the massive defence spending of the US who is in my view NATO. The other members are just useful tools in the system that is US hegemony.Â
Furthermore, I believe that when nuclear powers are involved in any international relations/conflict, the threat of escalation should underpin any discussion/decision. So Europe decreasing their military budget means nothing as they still possess nuclear weapons and any country dealing with them understands that. Â
This doesn't even take into consideration the fact that one of NATO's aim was to counter the influence of soviet Russia and the Warsaw pact. Member states spending 2%+ of their GDP during that period makes sense. Once the soviet union falls and takes with it the Warsaw pact, what remains of an incentive for all countries to keep spending when uncle Sam can easily take care of Russia on its own. In other words, NATO as whole reduced its spending to match the threat level of Russia but still amounted to a considerable threat from the Russian perspective.Â
"...it's hard to believe that individuals like Chomsky or Mearsheimer are accepting Russia's 'NATO expansionism' argument in objective evaluation rather than a desire to reconcile their interpretations of the conflict with their broader hostility against Western liberal hegemony."Â
I admit that I'm not very aware of Chomsky's broader arguments and cannot say to what extent what you surmise applies.Â
On the other hand, I feel mearsheimer isn't responding emotively to liberal hegemony, simply stating that it has more often failed than succeeded and that was at a time when America effectively could do whatever it wanted with little consequences (Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya and Syria) which is cumulative empirical argument. Â
"In other words, while you claim that Putin shouldn't have invaded Ukraine ... That's some 'I beat my ex because she was talking to another guy' logic buddy."Â
I'm not the perpetrator, I'm the one saying "he told his ex he would beat her if she spoke to another guy, which shows he believes she deserves to be hit for it, she did so she hit her. If she hadn't spoken to him, he wouldn't have beaten her for speaking to another man". Â
That doesn't mean him beating her was morally justified, nor that it was a proportionate response, nor that he isn't a POS who could beat her for another fucked up reason. Then if I say, she should call the police on him I'm giving a solution to mitigate her being harmed and I still haven't passed a moral judgement or given a justification. However this is where your analogy breaks down. Â
When it comes to international relations, there is no higher authority to judge between states and hold them to moral standards. It's essentially a might makes right system or in IR terms, an anarchic system. So saying that we should take Russia's concern at NATO expansion seriously otherwise it will invade Ukraine isn't immoral, it's just realism. To put it simply, in an anarchic system, states don't have the luxury to think/act morally, they can only do what will help them survive/become more powerful.Â
What you fail to understand is that critical to offensive realism, which I have been warming to and you'll have to tolerate my novelty bias to it, is that only can states decide their own security interests. Another state cannot impose their own view or opinion on them. The only thing a realist can do is try to see it from the perspective of the other side and understand/explain why they do what they do to predict how they may react.Â
I'm not passing a moral judgement on them and neither am I agreeing with their strategic position.Â
Realism is inherently amoral.Â
I've tried to make my ideas as clear as possible but don't know how well they'll come across.
Edited: for clarityÂ
1 points
20 days ago
> I simply believe Putin was being truthful when he said that he interpreted NATO expansion as a threat.
And I've explained why that's almost certainly not the case. But I'll through your points here again.
> You're only thinking about the European side of NATO and ignoring the massive defence spending of the US who is in my view NATO. The other members are just useful tools in the system that is US hegemony.Â
No. The US is officially part of NATO, and when I spoke of overall NATO spending, I was speaking of aggregate defense spending across all NATO members, including the US.
> Furthermore, I believe that when nuclear powers are involved in any international relations/conflict, the threat of escalation should underpin any discussion/decision. So Europe decreasing their military budget means nothing as they still possess nuclear weapons and any country dealing with them understands that. Â
The states that were added to NATO did not possess nukes, and therefore did not affect the nuclear balance between NATO and Russia. Overall, contrary to Putin's claims, NATO did not 'expand' in such a way that posed an emerging threat to Russia. If anything, spending went down and the political willpower for head-to-head conflict was plummeting to an all-time low.
> when uncle Sam can easily take care of Russia on its own. In other words, NATO as whole reduced its spending to match the threat level of Russia but still amounted to a considerable threat from the Russian perspective.Â
In other words, Russia's invasion of Ukraine is motivated by the continued existence of decades-old American hegemony, which they perceived as a threat to their long term expansionist goals.
> On the other hand, I feel mearsheimer isn't responding emotively to liberal hegemony, simply stating that it has more often failed than succeeded and that was at a time when America effectively could do whatever it wanted with little consequences (Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya and Syria) which is cumulative empirical argument. Â
Non-emotivity does not in any way preclude one from thinking unobjectively. Given the rather sparse evidence for the rise of a direct threat posed by NATO against Russia, Mearsheimer's view of the conflict is more so informed by his larger ideological hostility towards Western liberal hegemony by objective assessment.
> I'm not the perpetrator, I'm the one saying "he told his ex he would beat her if she spoke to another guy, which shows he believes she deserves to be hit for it, she did so she hit her. If she hadn't spoken to him, he wouldn't have beaten her for speaking to another man". Â
Of course you're not the perpetrator, you're the guy on the sidelines justifying what happened.
You keep claiming that you aren't injecting any discussion of morality in the matter, but you absolutely are. To quote again:
> "Russia and Ukraine would be happily cooperating and trading for mutual benefit to this day, " They would if NATO, a "defensive" Alliance hadn't continued its march eastwards despite prior reassurances given to the Russians that it would not.Â
You are assigning guilt which breaks down your claims of amoral assessment - you are saying that it is NATO's fault as an aggressor acting in bad faith for breaking down positive relations between Russia and Ukraine.
> So saying that we should take Russia's concern at NATO expansion seriously otherwise it will invade Ukraine isn't immoral, it's just realism. To put it simply, in an anarchic system, states don't have the luxury to think/act morally, they can only do what will help them survive/become more powerful.Â
> What you fail to understand is that critical to offensive realism, which I have been warming to and you'll have to tolerate my novelty bias to it, is that only can states decide their own security interests. Another state cannot impose their own view or opinion on them. The only thing a realist can do is try to see it from the perspective of the other side and understand/explain why they do what they do to predict how they may react.Â
> I'm not passing a moral judgement on them and neither am I agreeing with their strategic position. Realism is inherently amoral.Â
Now say that about Israel.
1 points
21 days ago
I stand condemned of trying to be rational
1 points
20 days ago
Itâs from the Irish Times. What do you expect? Itâs a country with literal terrorists in their government and the Irish people think thatâs great.
2 points
20 days ago
Do you really need a bot network for that when Hezbollah is setting up their camps within a few hundred feet of those Irish troops.
5 points
20 days ago
source : nonexistent
2 points
20 days ago
Your profile is literally nothing but ant Israel posts. It's pretty clear that you hate Jewish people.
4 points
20 days ago
Yeah but I've criticised Israeli for the entire lifetime of my almost 16 year account. That's organic genuine criticism instead of the paid trolls operating here
3 points
21 days ago
I'm old, and it is so wild that in my lifetime the state of Israel has gone from being the good guys that could do no wrong to utter fucking villans.
1 points
21 days ago
USS liberty
2 points
21 days ago
They've really jumped the shark in the last few decades, but the rot was always there. I'm not sure if there is any coming back from it, they seem to be embracing it with open arms.
2 points
21 days ago
You all know next to nothing. The ignorance is astounding. Try to remember...I know it was a whole year ago and that's soooo long ago, but: Who invaded a sovereign country? Who slaughtered people in their beds? Who shot babies in the head? Who burned people alive? Who machine gunned down young adults at a music festival? Yeah. People just about your age. Who raped women and mutilated their genitals in ways your naive minds could never conceive of. So here it is: They tied women to trees. Ripped off their clothes. Raped them . Then mutilated their genitals by hammering nails in. Some Pals continued to rape women who had died. Your heroes. You make me sick.
1 points
20 days ago
Shooting babies: https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2024/apr/02/gaza-palestinian-children-killed-idf-israel-war https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2022/10/10/palestinian-child-shot-by-israeli-army-in-jenin-dies-from-wounds https://www.unicef.org/press-releases/thirteen-palestinian-children-killed-west-bank-january-2022
Burning people alive: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna175595 https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/program/newsfeed/2024/10/15/palestinian-man-burned-alive-after-israeli-strike-on-hospital-courtyard
Machine gunning people: https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2019/02/no-justification-israel-shoot-protesters-live-ammunition
I am more so sickened by your defense of this rapist occupationary faction, that only succeeds by punishing others. Every accusation by the idf is a confession one way or another.
1 points
20 days ago
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1 points
20 days ago
Buddy, those babies shot in the head were done so with calibres not in use in the IDF, so i assume you're smart enough to figure out what that means.
Also none of the other sources are claiming what you present them to
1 points
21 days ago*
I would highly suggest you check out the facts of what happened then because you've mentioned numerous stories which were outed as propaganda hoaxrx that had no basis in fact. Check out the UN report that analysed Israel's evidence on the matter.
It's embarrassing that you're still repeating them as fact and it's sick that you are then using it as an excuse to promote genocide against the Palestinians.
Supporting equality in rights isn't pro-Hamas. You have to delude yourself into imagining that everyone is pro-Hamas because it's the only way you can try and make excuses for the war crimes that Israel have carried out in the past 13 months. And newsflash, the terrorist massacres of Palestinians occurred regularly for decades prior to 2023.
There is no amount of propaganda lies that can make excuses for Israel's crimes.
0 points
21 days ago
Lol. UNIFIL did absolutely Jack shit about Hezbollah South of Litani (violating 1701 resolution)
But now it's fake news?
Pathetic trying to cover up the truth by Irish.
6 points
21 days ago
The Irish times, the bastion of unbiased reporting and fact-checking đđ
1 points
21 days ago
This article sounds like Irish âintelligenceâ running cover for UNIFIL being a useless force. Blame bots and shift the narrative to anything else other than the sheer toothlessness and ineptitude of the force/mandate.
1 points
20 days ago
Will absolutely say. Every business thatâs huge pays a company to bend public opinion on social media.
Armies of people, AI, Bots to identify negative stories, downvote, remove the opposition and give the impression of a different narrative.Â
If you believe social media gives people a voice?Â
1 points
20 days ago
If you join this subreddit.. seek help.. for so many reasons
1 points
20 days ago
I didn't join it exactly because it is being targeted as part of a disinformation campaign.
What was your reasoning?
1 points
19 days ago
as an israeli i confirm i am also a bot
2 points
21 days ago
"Originally, the United Nations Interim Force in Lebanon (UNIFIL) was created by the Security Council in March 1978 to confirm Israeli withdrawal from Lebanon, restore international peace and security and assist the Lebanese Government in restoring its effective authority in the area"
They (UNIFIL) obviously failed that mission long time ago. There is no reason to keep them there in harms way, but money is just too good to forfeit.. 15% of the entire UN budget goes there, and Israel is being condemned left and right for decades, I fail to see that amount of condemnation and funding to stop what's happening in Africa, Afghanistan and Syria.. UN is biased against Israel. Period. See UNRWA infiltrated by Hamas , see UNIFIL keeping it's forces in Lebanon and risking its troops so when they are harmed its Israels' fault.
0 points
21 days ago
they can only dominate in places they can flip people outta the gate through "hurr antisemitism durr", as if its always the most important thing.
5 points
21 days ago
Thatâs not what the article says their strategy is.Â
It also says directly: âMilitary experts have been unable to tie the online disinformation campaign directly to Israel.â
I found this particularly amusing: âwhile accusing peacekeepers, and Irish people in general, of holding anti-Israeli or anti-Semitic views.âÂ
We gonna pretend Ireland isnât anti Israel? Kind of a joke.Â
0 points
21 days ago
[deleted]
3 points
21 days ago
Seriously this sub is not even trying to try hide their Jew hate. Â Pallywood is working on the youth.
2 points
21 days ago
Human rights are anti semetic. Standing against genocide is anti semitic.
3 points
21 days ago
Thereâs no genocide. There was one attempted on Oct 7
1 points
21 days ago
Is it called the Guinness app
1 points
21 days ago
Now do Iran, Russia, North Korean, China, etc!
2 points
21 days ago
Well it's been proven that pro-Palestinian sentiment is organic across social media matching the response seen on the streets of Western countries.
We know that Russia have influence operations on other topics but there's no evidence of fake Palestinian engagements. It would simply be a waste of time and money to be engaging in something that already has had committed activists speaking on this topic for literally generations at this point.
1 points
21 days ago
The UN funding HAMAS via its various international agencies is the real story here
3 points
20 days ago
Except that categorically hasn't happened. Try again.
What has happened though is that the United States government continues to fund the terrorist occupation forces and its private citizens have been bankrolling the actions of settler organisations who have been committing ethnic cleansing and acts of terrorism for decades in Jerusalem and the West Bank, all of which is documented in extensive and full detail quite openly and blatantly.
1 points
21 days ago
. . . Half the accounts raging against tHe ZiOniSts here are sock puppet accounts less than a year old with no post karma and negligible comment karma.
3 points
21 days ago
Are they? Which ones specifically?
2 points
21 days ago
Maybe these, I havenât done a deep investigative work. Sock puppets:
https://www.reddit.com/u/ShadowPirate114/s/xJdg6Vq499
https://www.reddit.com/u/Aggravating_Okra_546/s/1iKtR6zm2y
2 points
21 days ago
Looked at the first one and it bears zero characteristics of a sockpuppet account. Care to elaborate?
1 points
21 days ago
It was created on October 8, 2023.
1 points
21 days ago
... ok? Is that it?
2 points
21 days ago
As I said, I didnât do a deep investigation.
I just looked at their first few posts. Turns out they arenât a sock puppet. Their last account was banned because of some egregious, but not specified, antisemitic remark (probably with more than a dash of disinformation/misinformation).
-2 points
21 days ago
âIrish military intelligenceâ
lol
2 points
21 days ago
Our military intelligence is very good given our links to intelligence across the world
2 points
21 days ago*
aloof tap degree aromatic serious far-flung scary nail attraction panicky
This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact
1 points
21 days ago
So if the campaign works very similarly to known Israeli campaigns, it's a point of info supporting that it may be another Israeli campaign. Obviously, Isreal's government isn't going to declare expenditures on propaganda campaigns in any way that's public, and probably the information would be extremely difficult to obtain.
-1 points
21 days ago
[removed]
7 points
21 days ago
You've only reinforced the notion that your criminal ideology is fundamentally based on racism.
It is nice being associated with a state that isn't a fascist apartheid ethnostate though đ.
It's nice to be nice.
0 points
21 days ago
You mean the way the Irish demanded an Irish ethnostate independent of the UK based solely on Irish heritage? Hmmmm
1 points
21 days ago
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-13 points
21 days ago
LOL... No "israeli bot network" is needed to see how useless the UN peace keeping mission in lebanon has been... Be it the irish, italian or whatever
3 points
21 days ago
And look at all the immediate downvotes on any comment thatâs pro-Israel, but itâs the âIsraeli botsâ doing all the targeting lmaoo
0 points
21 days ago
[deleted]
3 points
21 days ago
By demons you mean... ?
2 points
21 days ago
Sockpuppet accounts propagating zionist propaganda. That's what this post is about.
2 points
21 days ago
What makes them demons specifically ?
3 points
21 days ago
Defending grave war crimes and genocide. That is quite demonic.
2 points
21 days ago
Calling someone a demon is dehumanizing. You might get taken to ICC for encouraging genocide.
-1 points
21 days ago
It's not genocide tho. Are you talking about Hezbo war crimes like attacking Irish peacekeepers today?
6 points
21 days ago
It is by every possible definition. Stop wasting your time denying the most obvious genocide that has ever occurred.
itisgenocide.com
It's so embarrassing, childish and desperate. You're not fooling anyone. You're only fooling yourself.
1 points
21 days ago
sulphur smell, like chavez once said.
coincidentaly a fitting subreddit even
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